Breeding Question!, aaarrrgggghhhh!!! Options

[AnthonyV]

I have a very fertile female. She lays eggs pretty often when I pair her up with my male but nothing! This is my fourth or fifth attempt! I'm starting to lose count! Male is twice the size of the female.

First couple of times I don't think the male fertilized them, female stayed real close to them and didn't let the male get close I think, eggs just turned white and puffy after a week.

Third (or fourth) time the day after the female laid eggs I removed her to ensure the male could get close but after a full day at work I came home to find out that he ate them all! I think I left him in there too long by himself.

Last night (most recent) I noticed my female laying another batch of eggs but to my frustration I saw the male eating them almost as soon as she was laying them!!! He's starting to piss me the f off!!! I think he's starting to like to eat them!

I do a water change every time before starting the process. I divide my 60 gallon tank for about 2 days. After removing the divider sure they fight a bit but nothing too crazy. Once the female lays eggs I turn off my filter and use air powered sponge filters. I feed them feeders to try and get them in the mood. Works great for my female but this male is some BS!!!

I don't know what to do because I really like my males genes and would prefer him (I have 2 males). I need help!

side note: I'm a newbie to the forum, this is my second post. I have pics of my pair in beginners section. Any help would be great!

[AnthonyV]

Here are some pictures:

Here he is (June 08) I think at 10 inches.


June 08 again


Breeding attempt (May 08) both male and female got beat up, male loss some kok and pearls.

[KanjiLumpy]

Here are some pictures:

Here he is (June 08) I think at 10 inches.


June 08 again


Breeding attempt (May 08) both male and female got beat up, male loss some kok and pearls.

after each attempt is unsucessful, do you seperate them?

[AnthonyV]

yes I do, to prevent any more damage

[AnthonyV]

Here are some more pics:

[AnthonyV]

Can anybody out there help me out? Not too sure what else to do

This post has been edited by AnthonyV: Sep 11 2008, 06:38 PM

[ccooler]

in the time of breeding, I decrease the water the half or 1/4 of tank for to impede a male to eat the eggs.

This post has been edited by ccooler: Sep 11 2008, 10:57 PM

[AnthonyV]

really?! you remove water only leaving half or a 1/4?!

has this worked for anyone else? does your male still fertilize the eggs?

This post has been edited by AnthonyV: Sep 12 2008, 08:34 AM

[xMrxSaux]

Anthony, I think it's best that right after you get a pair that breeds / fertilize that you can just remove one or the other. VIa the male / female or the eggs into a different tank

This way you can ensure that none of the eggs get eaten and also see if he's fertile. Some flowerhorns in this world just love eating eggs right after they breed and some take good care but since your's seem like an egg eater so then i guess it's best to remove the eggs from the tank. The tank you have them bred in seems like the gravel will kill the fries after the fall off the dish.

Good Luck

[crazyryceman]

gravel can kill the fry?

[rain^]

hmmmmm am not an expert breeder i should say but i did some batches waht i did was to observed the pair during the laying of eggs if the male was dripping his tube to the egg during the process of laying meaning your male was fertilizing the egg and when you see that the female was done laying the egg, give an hour or two then get out the male from the tank and leave the female with the eggs in order to care the eggs then wait till the eggs will hatch usually 2 days after fertilization

[AnthonyV]

Anthony, I think it's best that right after you get a pair that breeds / fertilize that you can just remove one or the other. VIa the male / female or the eggs into a different tank

This way you can ensure that none of the eggs get eaten and also see if he's fertile. Some flowerhorns in this world just love eating eggs right after they breed and some take good care but since your's seem like an egg eater so then i guess it's best to remove the eggs from the tank. The tank you have them bred in seems like the gravel will kill the fries after the fall off the dish.

Good Luck

I actually remove them both after the day the female first starts laying eggs. The female used to be way over protective at first and wouldn't let the male close. So I first started removing the female after she was completely done laying eggs, the male was cool but a couple of hours later would started eating them. Now I just leave them both but the male eats them almost as soon as she lays them

Actually my female doesn't even touch the plate. My gravel starts out perfectly flat and I throw in the plate just in case but she likes the bottom of the tank a lot better. She moves all the gravel to the side and sometimes buries the plate. She cleans the bottom perfectly and the male helps.

[AnthonyV]

hmmmmm am not an expert breeder i should say but i did some batches waht i did was to observed the pair during the laying of eggs if the male was dripping his tube to the egg during the process of laying meaning your male was fertilizing the egg and when you see that the female was done laying the egg, give an hour or two then get out the male from the tank and leave the female with the eggs in order to care the eggs then wait till the eggs will hatch usually 2 days after fertilization

the male seems to swim behind the female as she makes a pass of egg laying, he swims pretty low as if he was rubbing his belly on the eggs or floor...

but now that punk a** eats them right after in only a couple of minutes

maybe he's immature?

[AnthonyV]

thanks for all the help guys... still unsure though what else to try?

[fishyman124]

Did you put them in a new tank for breeding? If you do, maybe the male is still stressed out because of the new water. Also, did you feed them well (nutritiously) before the mating? The male might be too hungry to hold his hunger. Why don't you try separating for weeks before repairing them again? If it doesn't work still, why not choosing a different fertile female for him? Anyway, these are just my opinions. I've never tried breeding them before, but you can always be creative, isn't it? Best luck to you!

[AnthonyV]

Did you put them in a new tank for breeding? If you do, maybe the male is still stressed out because of the new water. Also, did you feed them well (nutritiously) before the mating? The male might be too hungry to hold his hunger. Why don't you try separating for weeks before repairing them again? If it doesn't work still, why not choosing a different fertile female for him? Anyway, these are just my opinions. I've never tried breeding them before, but you can always be creative, isn't it? Best luck to you!

It's not a new tank. It's actually his tank, his home. They are both well fed and right before pairing them up I feed them feeders, the male eats like a pig. I have a bad feeling it's not the female

[fishyman124]

The male must have a big stomach to eat like a pig lol, but I think that is good because it shows that the male is very healthy. By the way, I guess the male is very aggressive, isn't it?

[AnthonyV]

The male must have a big stomach to eat like a pig lol, but I think that is good because it shows that the male is very healthy. By the way, I guess the male is very aggressive, isn't it?

No, not really. It's usually the female thats aggressive.

[fishyman124]

Well, the female is usually aggressive during mating. What I mean to ask is, "Normally, Is the male very aggressive by himself? (not during mating and not with the female's presence). It could be that the male is no good in mating (not fertile), but I hope not. I'm wondering if there were some kind of hormone to make him do the job lol.

This post has been edited by fishyman124: Sep 13 2008, 09:37 AM

[AnthonyV]

Well, the female is usually aggressive during mating. What I mean to ask is, "Normally, Is the male very aggressive by himself? (not during mating and not with the female's presence). It could be that the male is no good in mating (not fertile), but I hope not. I'm wondering if there were some kind of hormone to make him do the job lol.

The male is usually very active towards me, I don't think I would consider him aggressive (or maybe he is). When he's by himself in there he chases a pleco a little bit but nothing too crazy. He's very interactive with me, chases my finger around pretty good even though I know all he wants is food. He loves attention because he knows eventually he will get fed, he eats a lot!

When the female is in there his attitude changes a bit. He seems to be more relaxed with her. He has to defend himself sometimes because she keeps bugging him. She swims circles around him trying to get his attention. Maybe she just doesn't do it for him? Sh**, I've even experienced that myself

[fhrmsrtnyc]

The problem with breeding is compatibility. Most fish are horrible parents and have to be trained to breed. The best time to start breeding a male is at 6-8 months of age. The male would still be very young and interested in learning to breed being a new experience and all. Breeding them at this age is a tad bit risky but if done under careful observation and without excessive abuse or frequency it is very beneficial for the future when the fish are at 10" giving the largest spawns they possibly can.

I bring this up because I believe that your male was sheltered from breeding experiences in an early age and now is becoming stubborn to train. The only way to correct this is with care, time and patiences. The male needs to be excited and the pair needs to be challenged in order to bond. I suggest pair bonding because if you start with another female he can become worse off than he already is. They have already been through a lot so there is already the beginnings of a connection. The female should be removed completely from the tank and not be seen by the male and fattened up until she is ready to burst with eggs kept at 84*F to allow for stimulation efforts in pair forming. Put at least 5 large fish that can be chased around forcing the male to defend his territory. I say 5 because you will have a much different social structure than with 1,2,3 or 4 due to the hierarchical nature of cichlids and only at 5 min will you get the desired affect we are aiming for. Chasing the target fish, you should find that the male's kok will swell up and he will look like a king in his tank constantly affirming his dominance. The target fish should be males to decrease chances of a new unwanted pair to form. Keep the male at 82-84*F (preferably cooler than the female to further stimulate him in the pairing process.) Do regular maintenance and observation while the female is prepping. The time this process should take will depend on how long your female will take to fully heal and fatten up with eggs.

Once you believe the female is ready its time to take the next step, and thats not putting them together but to raise the temp to 86*F. Even though it is only 2 degrees it makes a HUGE difference. Those 2 degrees allow for certain chemical processes to take place, simply it starts up your females reproduction engine. At the same time your male's temp should be raised. Having his temp range higher than the females from preferably 82* raised up to 86*F will really get his engines really running! No more water changes should be done at this point. While many will argue to the death that water changes are the key to success I have to disagree. The real key is stability and how stability is maintained is all up to the keeper through personal habits and observations of fish reaction to maintenance. So the last water change should be done 3 days before the temps are raised. NO CHANGES SHOULD BE DONE TO THE MALE'S TANK ONCE THE LAST WATER CHANGE HAS TAKEN PLACE! Its his house let him get used to it so he can bring a girl home. Leave all of the male's tank buddies in there so he has something to fight other than his girl.

Now that stability has been established and temps are raised for at least 24 hours it is time to introduce the female. Females should never be around males unless they are ready to breed it is a sexist fact but one that must be kept when dealing with animals that simply kill if another animal bothers it. Acclimation is very important, you want the female already used to the water when she runs into the male this will give her the best chance to pair. I suggest a slow drip acclimation in a bucket for at least 20-30 mins. Once the female is acclimated gently put her in by slowly pouring her in. Once in and if parameters are stable the male will immidieately notice her and begin the courting process where he displays his traits, his dominance, his fortitude and his home or a place he feels safe for a female to lay eggs in. Once pair forming begins then its time to stop traffic in front of the tank. Fish mainly eat their eggs when they feel it is unsafe for them to be raised, so stop messing with them.

At this point they should have chased all of the fish away and began to nest. Once this happens the lights should be dimmed to create a twilight effect. This can be done by placing some newspaper under the light in a secure fashion to limit light. This will also give the fish a false sense of security and limit their visual range, so if you must pass in front of the tank you will be less likely to stir them up. Once you see that the pair has set you can either remove the target fish, divide the tank separating the pair from the targets or allow them to breed with the target fish in there. If you remove them you will take the chance of disrupting the pair causing him to beat on her. If you divide the targets from the pair it would allow the male to chase the targets but to focus on the female but there will also be a chance that he can turn on her or the eggs still. The best way I would suggest in your situation is to leave the targets with the pair. The downside is that if the male has not been properly stimulated he can lose focus on breeding and just chase the targets and miss his opportunity to fertilize. This may cause him to become aggressive towards the female and once this is noticed (only after all the eggs have been laid) then you must take out the female and start all over. Also take the female out if you see that all of the eggs are white.

If all goes well you should have wigglers within 3 days. Once wigglers are seen hatching or seen period it is time to remove all of the other fish from the tank. Raising the fry from this stage is simple:do not start feeding till they are free swimming and do not do any water changes until they are 1/4", you may add up water though at any time as long as it is aged and set to go into the tank.

Breeding is a big step in the hobby and should only be attempted with full knowledge and responsibilities taken into consideration. Many pairs also fail flat out due to the way they are cared for. Keepers play a huge role in the keeping of fish and not having patiences or accurate knowledge or even neglect can cause a pair or fish even to fail. As long as you keep trying eventually you'll get it....or you can scrap it all and buy a new younger pair. Its all up to you.

If you have any further questions or challenges as to what I wrote dont be shy ask away and challenge away...and above all GOOD LUCK AND SEND ME SOME FRY....beautiful pair

[AnthonyV]

Thanks a lot bro!!! That is some real helpful information, the kind that I was looking for! I will definitely hook you up with some frys if everything works out...

I have been trying my best and giving it my all. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to work. I have 3 running tanks at home and 2 at the office and also have 6 empty ones on stand by for frys.

I guess part of my frustration is that I recently met a friend that is HIGHLY successful at breeding flowerhorns with very little experience, poor quality products and environment. He uses tap water (I buy filtered drinking water), he doesn't own a single filter ever (I have good filters and are in use until eggs are layed), he doesn't change his water and only uses sponge filters, he feeds all his fish cheap flakes, his tanks are outside in a shed and his temperatures are colder than mine and some of his tanks don't even use air! He has poor quality fish, no head on the males but decent color. He has so many frys that he just gives them away to local fish stores.

I'll have to admit that you're right though. My male has been sheltered most of his life, he's been in my 60 gallon by himself. I have a pleco in there and a bichur but nothing really for him to chase around or defend territory.

All of my tanks are already kept at 84 degrees. My female recovers very fast and only takes about 2-3 weeks before she's ready to lay eggs again. I've never had a problem getting the female ready or introducing her into the males tank. I've had my female for a while and wasn't planning on switching her since I know she's an egg laying machine. I'll keep at it with this pair since they already have a history.

I was thinking of using parrot fish as target fish for him to chase around, what do you think? Should I remove the pleco and bichur? I usually remove these two once I introduce the female.

Once I pair them up I also rarely turn on the lights and I cover the side of the tank with a towel. I turn on my moonlight LEDs to shine a little bit of blue light but also turn those off before I go to bed. (just like in the pics above)

I am willing to spend and try whatever it takes. Thank you for all your help

[luvtocatchem]

ya bro you just want the male and female in the tank...if it was me i would remove all gravel,incase you do get fry they wont get stuck in the gravel...keep trying sometimes it just takes a while.there has been alot of usefull info in this thread so just be patient.it will happen,dont give up just yet...good luck

[KanjiLumpy]

Thanks a lot bro!!! That is some real helpful information, the kind that I was looking for! I will definitely hook you up with some frys if everything works out...

I have been trying my best and giving it my all. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to work. I have 3 running tanks at home and 2 at the office and also have 6 empty ones on stand by for frys.

I guess part of my frustration is that I recently met a friend that is HIGHLY successful at breeding flowerhorns with very little experience, poor quality products and environment. He uses tap water (I buy filtered drinking water), he doesn't own a single filter ever (I have good filters and are in use until eggs are layed), he doesn't change his water and only uses sponge filters, he feeds all his fish cheap flakes, his tanks are outside in a shed and his temperatures are colder than mine and some of his tanks don't even use air! He has poor quality fish, no head on the males but decent color. He has so many frys that he just gives them away to local fish stores.

I'll have to admit that you're right though. My male has been sheltered most of his life, he's been in my 60 gallon by himself. I have a pleco in there and a bichur but nothing really for him to chase around or defend territory.

All of my tanks are already kept at 84 degrees. My female recovers very fast and only takes about 2-3 weeks before she's ready to lay eggs again. I've never had a problem getting the female ready or introducing her into the males tank. I've had my female for a while and wasn't planning on switching her since I know she's an egg laying machine. I'll keep at it with this pair since they already have a history.

I was thinking of using parrot fish as target fish for him to chase around, what do you think? Should I remove the pleco and bichur? I usually remove these two once I introduce the female.

Once I pair them up I also rarely turn on the lights and I cover the side of the tank with a towel. I turn on my moonlight LEDs to shine a little bit of blue light but also turn those off before I go to bed. (just like in the pics above)

I am willing to spend and try whatever it takes. Thank you for all your help

i am having the exact same problems as you, the female lays eggs but male doesnt do anything. Like you i had my male in a 60 gallon by himself for over a year and now i put in a 135 gallon, trying to breed him. I think its due to the lack of experience when he was younger. If you do put some blood parrots in your tank, let me know how it goes and let me know the size. I was considering this approach after reading post. i know its freakin frustrating to try so hard without the result you want. Good luck with trying to bread and keep us updated bro.

[fhrmsrtnyc]

Thanks a lot bro!!! That is some real helpful information, the kind that I was looking for! I will definitely hook you up with some frys if everything works out...

I have been trying my best and giving it my all. I've spent a lot of time and money trying to get it to work. I have 3 running tanks at home and 2 at the office and also have 6 empty ones on stand by for frys.

I guess part of my frustration is that I recently met a friend that is HIGHLY successful at breeding flowerhorns with very little experience, poor quality products and environment. He uses tap water (I buy filtered drinking water), he doesn't own a single filter ever (I have good filters and are in use until eggs are layed), he doesn't change his water and only uses sponge filters, he feeds all his fish cheap flakes, his tanks are outside in a shed and his temperatures are colder than mine and some of his tanks don't even use air! He has poor quality fish, no head on the males but decent color. He has so many frys that he just gives them away to local fish stores.

I'll have to admit that you're right though. My male has been sheltered most of his life, he's been in my 60 gallon by himself. I have a pleco in there and a bichur but nothing really for him to chase around or defend territory.

All of my tanks are already kept at 84 degrees. My female recovers very fast and only takes about 2-3 weeks before she's ready to lay eggs again. I've never had a problem getting the female ready or introducing her into the males tank. I've had my female for a while and wasn't planning on switching her since I know she's an egg laying machine. I'll keep at it with this pair since they already have a history.

I was thinking of using parrot fish as target fish for him to chase around, what do you think? Should I remove the pleco and bichur? I usually remove these two once I introduce the female.

Once I pair them up I also rarely turn on the lights and I cover the side of the tank with a towel. I turn on my moonlight LEDs to shine a little bit of blue light but also turn those off before I go to bed. (just like in the pics above)

I am willing to spend and try whatever it takes. Thank you for all your help

I'm glad that this is helping out. Well your friend with crap water and tons of luck is either not telling you that hes busting his butt doing daily water changes from aged tap and with the density of fish the water murks up right away or hes simply keeping his parameters stable. Flower Horn and most egg laying cichlids are easy to breed once you have a general understanding of their social structure and body language. Even then, they are still so easy to breed that even if your not looking for it, it will happen. With this bit it only reaffirms my point about stabilty.

Stability comes from 2 sources, the actual water parameters and the keeper. If with your filtration and feeding regiment you are able to keep the parameters stable without pH flux or a toxicity spike then you do not have to do water changes, simply just add up when evaporation occurs. Water changes should only be done once parameters begin to change and then the water you are pumping into the tank should be set to correct and restablize the water with the tank....NEVER TO REPLACE! Think about water as a solution of Nitrates, Nitrites, Phosphate, Amonia and acidity. All you want to do with the new water is to reset the remaining water back to the orginal or wanted levels.

And now the keeper. Why fix something that isn't broke? Why? Cause it's fun thats why! I know it gets boring looking at the same old set up day in and day out. Its also fun to see how our fish would react to change or external stimuli created by adding decor, toys, mirrors and even other fish but without proper restraint all we are doing is scaring, confusing and even bothering our fish. The number one reason for fish death is human error...remember that! So whenever possible just leave the fish and his or her home ALONE! Just clean up after him, maintain the water and let the fish be a fish. Allowing this to happen would give the fish a better feeling of false security and a primitive (primitive only because WE do not have a full understanding of them yet) sense of mine.

All and all what I am trying to get at is sometimes being too involved with your tank is just as bad, sometimes worse, than utter neglect. This is the only reason, based on what you said, why your friend might be doing better than you. Also there is the fish to take into consideration. If hes breeding smaller fish then its much easier than your project. If he is breeding lower quality and does not mind the parents fighting then hes gonna have an easier time just letting them be. Its all situational.

But back to you, parrots are a great target fish. They have almost identical behavior as most other fish and cannot do much damage with the way their jaw is structured. Also they come out mostly males due to the hybridization process, but females do commonly occur. Be careful when choosing, look for broad bodied males so your fish has a nice surface to hit and to dominate. Remember if you buy a female it will cause problems with the pair and one of the females could die from it. Make sure you buy them at about 75% of the size of your male, any smaller he will just kill them any larger and they may fight back successfully. If money is no object I would pick up 7 of these bad boys to allow for survival of the fittest and if 1 or 2 die you will still have enough to get the job done.

Plecos are the best filters that money can buy. They turn everything into their poo which is stringy, collects together, and does not elevate toxicity levels like uneaten food or other fish's feces. This make it easier to stabilize a tank and to keep it clear. If you must go the route of taking your fish out then take the pleco out with them, but if you leave them all in there together with the pair breeding, the male should not have a hard time keeping it back away from the fry. Just remember that all of the fish must come out when the eggs hatch regardless of type. Also once the babies reach a 1/2"-3/4" in size reintroduce baby plecos. Like I said they will make clean up very easy.

Final point for this post is to keep trying, your male will need time with the targets and to really build up a sense of dominance so if the female is ready with 2 or 3 weeks continuously then base your timing on the male and when you feel he is at his best. Also do not disregard what I had said the in previous post that should be your very basic outline.

Anymore questions or concerns post them up and ill keep checking.

Best of Luck Bro

[AnthonyV]

Thanks for all your help fhrmsrtnyc

Any thoughts about leaving the bichur in there? He's usually pretty relaxed in there and every now and then gets punked by my male.

This post has been edited by AnthonyV: Sep 16 2008, 09:24 AM

[AnthonyV]

Never mind about the bichur, he's not important. I'll try and get seven of those bad boys this weekend and put them in there.

I know I'm pretty involved with my tanks but all I really do to is clean them and then I just observe. The day after I clean them I test the water to make sure everything is good and leave it alone till the next cleaning. The only difference when I put the female in there is that I also add the clay dish (which she doesn't even use). Next time I probably wont even use that anymore. His environment is pretty stable, he's the king of that tank!

Thanks again bro

[AnthonyV]

Ok, it's update time...

-So I set up my 120gl office tank and my male has been in there for several months.
-I have 5 parrots in there that are less than 1/4 his size (I'm actually surprised he hasn't killed any)
-I have 1 flat rock, 1 clay dish and a round rock (that a friend swears his female loves for egg laying)
-Rena Filstar XP4 filter, aeration is good, moonlight, water quality is good and temp is at 82
-Also have 2 plecos
-I introduced the female 2 1/2 weeks ago, I raised temp to 86
-First week and she began to lay eggs, she punks the parrots and plecos
-She doesn't use any of the stuff I put in there, she loves the bottom of the tank (glass)
-Male ate the eggs (as usual )
-I noticed she had another batch of eggs this morning but they also look eaten
-He is the only one that can get near the eggs, everyone else gets chased away
-Male is now around 11 inches, female is less than half his size, parrots are half the size of the female
-Male is getting beat up by the female
-He eats like a pig! I've been feeding them GS & GS Red plus feeders sometimes



I'm thinking it might be a maturity thing since the female is a bit older than the male. I've had her for well over a year but have kept her in smaller tanks. I've had my male for about a year or maybe less and have kept him in large tanks usually by himself and have pumped him up real good.

I'm also thinking he doesn't know what to do yet but I've tried several times already. I had another male that I was planning to switch with but he died recently (dropsy, my other post). I also have another male (faded zz) but he is much too young and small in size.

I've bought the bigger tank, male has been in there long enough, he is the king in there. I've bought parrots, I'm using the clay dish and rocks with different smooth textures. Water and temp is good, I change about 20-25% of the water and clean the filter 2 times a month. Female is an egg laying machine, laying almost every other week. I'm only in the office a couple of hours a day M-F (sometimes Sat) and I only turn on the light when I'm there. They are pretty much left alone when I'm not at work.

WHAT ELSE DO I NEED TO DO????????? aslkdjfhz;xslkjdgha;sdlkjgfha;sdkjgflhas;!!!

Please help with any advice, thanks.

[Bllib]

I might have missed it somewhere but how old is the male?

[fishyman124]

If I were you, I would separate the male and let it by itself in a different tank. Maybe it's not mature enough to breed. Let it mature for a few months (hormone growth) before breeding them again. During the isolation, you can put a divider in the male's tank and put the female the other side for ONLY 30mins to an hour. You can either leave the female in a container (No divider needed) or put her in the tank with divider. Remember to acclimate the fish. This might stimulate the male to pair up. By the way, it's a very nice pair you have, what you'll get might are koky ZZRD frys if you breed those two