This thread was begun because of a discussion going on concerning kok growth in waterheads, but the discussion of fasting was brought up and deserves its own thread.
Fasting your fish is perhaps the greatest key to health and vitality you will likley find. There are many benifits to fasting your fish I will attempt to address a few of them.
General health, vitality, and longevity. All the benefits fasting your fish evolve from a single principle. That principle is this, digestion of food is the number one energy expenditure in the life of your fish. The fish must produce digestive enzymes in order to properly digest the food, in the case of pellets or even flakes even more enzymes are needed as they do not contain thier own enzymes as natural food does. In order to generate these digestive enzymes the fish' biological system uses a great deal of general enzmes which carry out all the biological functions in the fish. The general enzymes are the Chi or life force of the fish. Think of the general enzymes as the worker ants of the biological system. There is a finite number of these general enymes available at a given time. When we fast our fish we are taking the main drag on the system away, this allows the general enzymes to concentrate on thier other important tasks, most notably waste removal and cleaning up of the biological system. All degenerative disease eminate from a break down in the waste removal process, it is imperative the waste is removed faster than it builds up. When this does not occur bad things happen on a cellular level and the fish' weakest link will be attacked, disease sets in, hexa is a prime example from over feeding and dirty water. Stress also takes a toll on the process.
Since the biological system is designed to be self cleaning and thus, self healing, we are helping our fish, help themselves as it were.
Vitality is renewed during this process, color improves because the system is cleaned and running the way it is supposed to and can support the hormonal system etc... I have a male jin gang who recently has been acting not well at all. He was clamped finned, lethargic, lost his color and was eating poorly. Note that eating poorly or not at all is instinctive in the animal world, now you know why. I put him in a hospital tank and fasted him for a week solid. At the end of this time his kok came back, his color was superior to what its been in a year, hes extremely aggresive like he used to be. His system cleaned itself. In the other thread westwood noted that he noticed this too, that periodic fasting improved the kok in his fish.
You may have noticed fish fed live food tend have superior color, particularly kept in ponds and such, this is because live food contains digestive enzymes and the fish does not have use general enzymes to create them. there are other factors as well but thats a big one. Additionally we are feeding our fish pellets which contain plant, starch and protien. This is unnatural. Omnivours do eat all these things, but not at the same time. A cichlid may eat minnows and vegetable matter, but you wont find them eating these things at the same time in nature. birds eat berries and such and also insects and worms but not at the same time. The reason is that these foods require different enzymes for proper disgestion, in fact the ezymes tend to cancel each other out due to opposite PH values. the result is that it takes far longer to digest, expending more enzymes and still resulting in improper absorbstion. This creates stress on the system as a whole and a great deal of waste to clean and by now we know thats BAD. Think of Thankgiving dinner or an all you can eat buffet where you stuff yourself with a variety of foods, what does your body want to do? Sleep, the body wants to sleep to concentrate on digestion, if you try to be active after a big meal what can happen? cramps etc... when you have a full stomach the body becomes focused on digestion as its primary task. Unfortunatley much of the live food we have at our disposal also contains parasites and such.
Illness and disease. The best thing you can do for an ill fish is to fast it. Lets look at hexa as many of us have dealt wth it before. I had a 5" ZZ who was in a community tank. He daily battled with a African zebra for territory. At some point the I thought the zebra had beaten him to a pulp as he was hiding quite a bit which wasnt his personality. I caught him and took a look, he had hexa pretty bad and it had eaten away a good deal of his face. I immediately placed him in a hospital tank and began his fast. I slowly put the temp up to 90f, this has a twofold effect. First the heat accelerates the cleaning system and secondly the hexa bacteria or parasite cannot live at this temp. Then I added salt to the water, this allows the toxins to flow through the skin into the tank water easier, this also means frequent water changes. This fish was pretty messed up and he fasted/refused to eat for six or seven weeks ( so dont worry about going away for the weekend! ) when his appetite returned he got frozen blood worms which are easy to digest. Over the course of two months I fed him, power fed him, with one day fasts per week . I had him in a twenty gallon tank so i knew if he was going to grow it wouldnt be longer it would be fatter, in this manner his face filled back in albiet scarred. Hes alive and well.
How effecient is this twice a week fasting regiment? A study was done on mice. two groups of brothers and sisters were used. One group was fed daily the other fasted twice a week. The group that was fasted lived 50% longer than the other group. Wise councel for anyone with a prized fish they want to keep around.
As far as implementation, Im not sure if I would worry too much with juvies, but adult fish will surely benefit.
I hope Ive explained this idea well enough and incidently this fasting works with all animals including humans.
Any questions or adding commentary would be welcomed.
RR
Full Version: Fasting For Fish Health And Vitality.
Great post RR! 
I had no clue about any of that. Thanks!
I had no clue about any of that. Thanks!
Nice post! I almost always skip a day of feeding at least once a week, sometimes twice. Good for the fish.
the boss might want to sticky this somewhere. Its good info and explains a bit of why the experienced fish keepers do the the things they do. We all probably could have saved a few fish if we would have known this early in our fish keeping days.
RR
RR
It seems altogether unfounded. Most of your statements are based solely on assumptions. I don't mean to derail, but rather to just keep the mind open to suggestion. It's interesting points you've brought up, but unless testing or reproduceable proof justifies your statements, there's no leverage to them. Furthermore, it's not clear what enzymes are used, as well as what "substitute" enzymes are being utilized in place of those necessary enzymes. Furthermore, it seems unlikely that flakes or pellets can't be broken down by naturally occuring enzymes, even though they are man-made, they are still perishables that fit to the general diet of the fish. If the enzymes couldn't break it down at all, the fish wouldn't be able to "eat" the flakes or pellets.
Another misconception, is that mice have no direct correlation to fishes. You're comparison, is thus, oddly inappropriate. The study, if reproduceable, simply gives concrete evidence to fasting upon mice, or in a broader sense, mammals. To directly link it's effects, ill or beneficial, to fish as well, is simply too farfetched.
Your statements about diseases and your choice of diction simply contradict at too many points for me to really take the time to scrutinize. All in all, i do believe, the change in environment, more then being overfed, has a greater cause for disease. No one gets a bacterial infection from overstuffing themselves, albeit, entirely logic-based, it's certainly coherant to your line of thought thus far. An example of my line of thought would be your jin kang example. I strongly believe your lack of feeding, directly resulted in a cleaner environment, when you moved him into a sterile tank with no bio-load other then the fish's metabolic processes themselves, and thus a healthier fish at the endof the week long process. Your assumption, that the fish was healed because of just being starved, doesn't make much sense. The fish could've possibly had a bacterial infestation, internally or externally and it's immune system could've handled that with the aid of a cleaner environment, all on its own. This too would justify why the jin kang recuperated etc.
Although, i too believe, fish's should be fed routinely, and intermittently, there's no justifiable benefit to overfeeding or underfeeding, as we know it, thus far.
Another misconception, is that mice have no direct correlation to fishes. You're comparison, is thus, oddly inappropriate. The study, if reproduceable, simply gives concrete evidence to fasting upon mice, or in a broader sense, mammals. To directly link it's effects, ill or beneficial, to fish as well, is simply too farfetched.
Your statements about diseases and your choice of diction simply contradict at too many points for me to really take the time to scrutinize. All in all, i do believe, the change in environment, more then being overfed, has a greater cause for disease. No one gets a bacterial infection from overstuffing themselves, albeit, entirely logic-based, it's certainly coherant to your line of thought thus far. An example of my line of thought would be your jin kang example. I strongly believe your lack of feeding, directly resulted in a cleaner environment, when you moved him into a sterile tank with no bio-load other then the fish's metabolic processes themselves, and thus a healthier fish at the endof the week long process. Your assumption, that the fish was healed because of just being starved, doesn't make much sense. The fish could've possibly had a bacterial infestation, internally or externally and it's immune system could've handled that with the aid of a cleaner environment, all on its own. This too would justify why the jin kang recuperated etc.
Although, i too believe, fish's should be fed routinely, and intermittently, there's no justifiable benefit to overfeeding or underfeeding, as we know it, thus far.
This type of holistic medicine goes back thousand of years in China and was made popular here in the states by Dr. Herbert Shelton his most famous client being Ghandi. All that I say here has been thouroughly researched and more importantly has been proven by the hands of time. The University study with the mice was conducted in the US. Its really a very simple concept and should be self evident.
Digestive ease is also a large player in the equation, Chinese food, thousands of years ago was designed by doctors not culinary artist, the idea was simple. Less energy going to digestion, the more goes to cleaning and healing. This is at least part of the reason Chinese food causes you to hungry an hour after youve eaten it- it was designed to digest quickly and easily. It is also why Asian countries have far lower rates of cancer and degenerative disease. The same principal applies to abstaining from sex, after sex your energy is devoted towards replacing the lost fluids etc.. no sex before a fight, youve heard that before, it weakens you and your stamina, likewise you will find in our fish breeding, there are many who know that breeding a female too young can damage her growth and health, once again because there is limited energy available to her body. regular growth, food digestiion, the toll of replacing her eggs and what was leached from her body to create the first brood all take its toll on a young fish.
The focus of the article was not a lenghty dissertation but rather a conveying the most salient simple points.
RR
Digestive ease is also a large player in the equation, Chinese food, thousands of years ago was designed by doctors not culinary artist, the idea was simple. Less energy going to digestion, the more goes to cleaning and healing. This is at least part of the reason Chinese food causes you to hungry an hour after youve eaten it- it was designed to digest quickly and easily. It is also why Asian countries have far lower rates of cancer and degenerative disease. The same principal applies to abstaining from sex, after sex your energy is devoted towards replacing the lost fluids etc.. no sex before a fight, youve heard that before, it weakens you and your stamina, likewise you will find in our fish breeding, there are many who know that breeding a female too young can damage her growth and health, once again because there is limited energy available to her body. regular growth, food digestiion, the toll of replacing her eggs and what was leached from her body to create the first brood all take its toll on a young fish.
The focus of the article was not a lenghty dissertation but rather a conveying the most salient simple points.
RR
'Your statements about diseases and your choice of diction simply contradict at too many points for me to really take the time to scrutinize. All in all, i do believe, the change in environment, more then being overfed, has a greater cause for disease."
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---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
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" No one gets a bacterial infection from overstuffing themselves, albeit, entirely logic-based, it's certainly coherant to your line of thought thus far. "
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---Lets use hexa as an example. Most experienced fish keepers believe hexa is in almost all fish dormant and it is brought forth through, stress, environment, overfeeding etc...all things that rob the systems finite resources.
A bacterial infection can certainly be brought about due to external factors, This is obvious. And Im not saying this is a cure all, however it is highly effective on degenerative disease.
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"An example of my line of thought would be your jin kang example. I strongly believe your lack of feeding, directly resulted in a cleaner environment, when you moved him into a sterile tank with no bio-load other then the fish's metabolic processes themselves, and thus a healthier fish at the endof the week long process. Your assumption, that the fish was healed because of just being starved, doesn't make much sense. The fish could've possibly had a bacterial infestation, internally or externally and it's immune system could've handled that with the aid of a cleaner environment, all on its own. This too would justify why the jin kang recuperated etc."
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---First he was in a clean environment, his actual malady was begining stages of ick which i brought upon him due to stupidity that I wont elaborate on
Second, youve hit on a good analogy. A tanks bioload is somewhat like the fish' system, tasked too much and it will not operate properly, remove the source of the load, fish waste, and the problems in the system disapates. So it goes in the fish' system. not a perfect analogy but it gets the point across.
RR
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---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" No one gets a bacterial infection from overstuffing themselves, albeit, entirely logic-based, it's certainly coherant to your line of thought thus far. "
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---Lets use hexa as an example. Most experienced fish keepers believe hexa is in almost all fish dormant and it is brought forth through, stress, environment, overfeeding etc...all things that rob the systems finite resources.
A bacterial infection can certainly be brought about due to external factors, This is obvious. And Im not saying this is a cure all, however it is highly effective on degenerative disease.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"An example of my line of thought would be your jin kang example. I strongly believe your lack of feeding, directly resulted in a cleaner environment, when you moved him into a sterile tank with no bio-load other then the fish's metabolic processes themselves, and thus a healthier fish at the endof the week long process. Your assumption, that the fish was healed because of just being starved, doesn't make much sense. The fish could've possibly had a bacterial infestation, internally or externally and it's immune system could've handled that with the aid of a cleaner environment, all on its own. This too would justify why the jin kang recuperated etc."
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---First he was in a clean environment, his actual malady was begining stages of ick which i brought upon him due to stupidity that I wont elaborate on
Second, youve hit on a good analogy. A tanks bioload is somewhat like the fish' system, tasked too much and it will not operate properly, remove the source of the load, fish waste, and the problems in the system disapates. So it goes in the fish' system. not a perfect analogy but it gets the point across.RR
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---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
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Fish are cold blooded. They don't expend energy to maintain a certain body temperature. Rather, the body temperature they have, relative to the environment, determines the level of activity within their bodies.
Other then that., you're right. I can see that we're like minded people here, but just try to remember to be skeptical about what you read, when they aren't facts or definitive. Everything can be presumed false, unless proven otherwise.
---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
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Fish are cold blooded. They don't expend energy to maintain a certain body temperature. Rather, the body temperature they have, relative to the environment, determines the level of activity within their bodies.
Other then that., you're right. I can see that we're like minded people here, but just try to remember to be skeptical about what you read, when they aren't facts or definitive. Everything can be presumed false, unless proven otherwise.
QUOTE (AiSaranG @ Oct 6 2006, 10:28 AM) 
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---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fish are cold blooded. They don't expend energy to maintain a certain body temperature. Rather, the body temperature they have, relative to the environment, determines the level of activity within their bodies.
Other then that., you're right. I can see that we're like minded people here, but just try to remember to be skeptical about what you read, when they aren't facts or definitive. Everything can be presumed false, unless proven otherwise.
---Environment does play a role and it goes back to the same thing. For example you may have noticed when you keep your tanks cooler your fish tend to get sick more. It goes back to the fish' system expending large amounts of energy to keep its body temp up. Since there is afinite amount of energy, the bodies defenses are weakened, allowing for illness to strike at the most vulnerable place on the fish.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fish are cold blooded. They don't expend energy to maintain a certain body temperature. Rather, the body temperature they have, relative to the environment, determines the level of activity within their bodies.
Other then that., you're right. I can see that we're like minded people here, but just try to remember to be skeptical about what you read, when they aren't facts or definitive. Everything can be presumed false, unless proven otherwise.
You may find it interesting to know that I too am a skeptic, and as you know once converted to an idea its difficult to shake the belief of a skeptic:)
The worst thing of all is a skeptic turned preacher =).
QUOTE (AiSaranG @ Oct 6 2006, 02:05 PM)
The worst thing of all is a skeptic turned preacher =).
I could not possibly disagree more with this statement.
I like the Information and imputs, i think the thread is worthy to be pinned!
yeah this is interesting . I remember a thread where someone had one of rare's fish and was dissapointed with the kok growth. rare told him to only feed him twice a week to improve the kok and it apparently worked ... anyone remember that one ?
very good and interesting thread.
nice and helpful thread
wow i found out so much... well i gotta start fasting once in a while now haha:)TY RR
Great post RR.
Absolutely the best posting RR!! Thank you for the injection of Dr. Herbert. Certainly a man worth reading up on. I couldn't agree more, there is absolutely great reason to be skeptical about all that we do, yet what has worked for many years does not need scientific validity to understand the concepts.
Marc
Thank you for the injection of Dr. Herbert. Certainly a man worth reading up on. I couldn't agree more, there is absolutely great reason to be skeptical about all that we do, yet what has worked for many years does not need scientific validity to understand the concepts. Marc
I honestly never fast my fish but I am going to try it for a month or two just to report any findings. The "subjects" are extremely healthy and they never have had disease problems. We will see how it goes with fasting for a day a week at first.
my GM had hexa, and i fasten him for 10 days... i personally didn't think he would survive, but after the fasten, he ate thoroughly and became very active and lively.... i guess it doesn't have to be proven scientically, but rather through experiences and experiments...
QUOTE (HighFive @ Oct 6 2006, 06:03 PM)
Absolutely the best posting RR!! Thank you for the injection of Dr. Herbert. Certainly a man worth reading up on. I couldn't agree more, there is absolutely great reason to be skeptical about all that we do, yet what has worked for many years does not need scientific validity to understand the concepts.
Marc
Thank you for the injection of Dr. Herbert. Certainly a man worth reading up on. I couldn't agree more, there is absolutely great reason to be skeptical about all that we do, yet what has worked for many years does not need scientific validity to understand the concepts. Marc
That is not necessarily true. Unless proper research has been done, the ends don't justify the means. In the sense that, just because something happened, doesn't let you know how or why it happened. Thus proper analytical procedures should be endured so as to properly distinguish fact from fiction.
QUOTE (TheGreatFH @ Oct 7 2006, 04:46 PM)
my GM had hexa, and i fasten him for 10 days... i personally didn't think he would survive, but after the fasten, he ate thoroughly and became very active and lively.... i guess it doesn't have to be proven scientically, but rather through experiences and experiments...
proving it scientifically does involve experiments, but proper etiquettes need to be followed. An experiment is useless unless you can isolate a cause and effect.
QUOTE (AiSaranG @ Oct 9 2006, 05:08 PM)
QUOTE (HighFive @ Oct 6 2006, 06:03 PM)
Absolutely the best posting RR!!
Thank you for the injection of Dr. Herbert. Certainly a man worth reading up on. I couldn't agree more, there is absolutely great reason to be skeptical about all that we do, yet what has worked for many years does not need scientific validity to understand the concepts. Marc
That is not necessarily true. Unless proper research has been done, the ends don't justify the means. In the sense that, just because something happened, doesn't let you know how or why it happened. Thus proper analytical procedures should be endured so as to properly distinguish fact from fiction.
QUOTE (TheGreatFH @ Oct 7 2006, 04:46 PM)
my GM had hexa, and i fasten him for 10 days... i personally didn't think he would survive, but after the fasten, he ate thoroughly and became very active and lively.... i guess it doesn't have to be proven scientically, but rather through experiences and experiments...
proving it scientifically does involve experiments, but proper etiquettes need to be followed. An experiment is useless unless you can isolate a cause and effect.
Ali,
What Marc (HighFive) writes you can take to the bank. He has done A LOT of research on the flowerhorn with studies through school and his own personnal keeping. He is one of the most scientific fish keepers I have ever met and to put it bluntly, he knows his sh#%!!!
Thanks to this thread...I now cut down my feeding routine to only twice a day and little at a time. Before, 3 to 4 times a day until they can't take it any more. I now notice that my fish are very active and comes to me all the time when I'm around them. The biggest thing I've noticed is the kok on my male fish got much more bigger than before. It truely make a difference....thanks to RR.
WOW Glad to hear it ZZ.
I too am trying to adjust my feedings. In trying to find somethingmy texas will eat that is plant matter, full of chlorophyl and enzymes. Also some live food like meal worms or earthworms. I believe the enzymes will have a significant effect on coloration. So really Ill be mixing it up between live, pellet and fasting. Should be a good combo.
If anyone knows of the thread where Rarefish speaks on only feeding twice per week, I think it may be of value. Im sure I remember him fasting his fish when thier Ill.
RR
Glad to hear it ZZ. I too am trying to adjust my feedings. In trying to find somethingmy texas will eat that is plant matter, full of chlorophyl and enzymes. Also some live food like meal worms or earthworms. I believe the enzymes will have a significant effect on coloration. So really Ill be mixing it up between live, pellet and fasting. Should be a good combo.
If anyone knows of the thread where Rarefish speaks on only feeding twice per week, I think it may be of value. Im sure I remember him fasting his fish when thier Ill.
RR
QUOTE (Redrooster @ Oct 10 2006, 05:57 AM)
WOW Glad to hear it ZZ.
I too am trying to adjust my feedings. In trying to find somethingmy texas will eat that is plant matter, full of chlorophyl and enzymes. Also some live food like meal worms or earthworms. I believe the enzymes will have a significant effect on coloration. So really Ill be mixing it up between live, pellet and fasting. Should be a good combo.
If anyone knows of the thread where Rarefish speaks on only feeding twice per week, I think it may be of value. Im sure I remember him fasting his fish when thier Ill.
RR
Glad to hear it ZZ. I too am trying to adjust my feedings. In trying to find somethingmy texas will eat that is plant matter, full of chlorophyl and enzymes. Also some live food like meal worms or earthworms. I believe the enzymes will have a significant effect on coloration. So really Ill be mixing it up between live, pellet and fasting. Should be a good combo.
If anyone knows of the thread where Rarefish speaks on only feeding twice per week, I think it may be of value. Im sure I remember him fasting his fish when thier Ill.
RR
rarefish's post was to bring to the attention that some of the members fish were alittle overfed at that point, and that their heads werent coming out at the time. He asked some members to reduce on the ammount of feedings so that the fish can loose some weight and show of the potential, In his post he was insinuating some benefits of the fasting, but then he said you can go back to your regular feeding as long as you dont keep overfeeding!
Gotcha!
RR
RR
what you guys think every other day feeding?
would that stun growth?
would that stun growth?
a QUALITY THREAD... kudos to those who contributed.
i don't really come from a science based background so my practices are more of what i have picked up over the years and from experience and more experienced hobbyists. i always did practice fasting on all my fishes even during pre-flowerhorn days. i just believe that with the kind of feeding i give my fishes, which is a bit on the heavy side. one or two days of fasting would clean out the gut of the fish and give the fish the chance for it's body to do focus on something else (such as growth or repair) rather than digest and assimilate food.
i don't really come from a science based background so my practices are more of what i have picked up over the years and from experience and more experienced hobbyists. i always did practice fasting on all my fishes even during pre-flowerhorn days. i just believe that with the kind of feeding i give my fishes, which is a bit on the heavy side. one or two days of fasting would clean out the gut of the fish and give the fish the chance for it's body to do focus on something else (such as growth or repair) rather than digest and assimilate food.
QUOTE (cheken @ Oct 11 2006, 11:23 AM)
what you guys think every other day feeding?
would that stun growth?
would that stun growth?
Yes i think it would slow growth down a bit , maybe too much.
Putting this idea to work and getting it dialed in will be trial and error. We want good growth rates and of course kok development but not overfeed and pollute the the water.
For now Im going to fast full grown and developed adults 2 times per week, juvies and adults who arent finished growing once per week and see how that works out.
I think Im going to do the one day fasts on the same days I do water change, thereby giving the fish the best opportunity to clean themselves out- no food and clean fresh water.
RR
QUOTE (Redrooster @ Oct 12 2006, 01:51 AM)
QUOTE (cheken @ Oct 11 2006, 11:23 AM)
what you guys think every other day feeding?
would that stun growth?
Yes i think it would slow growth down a bit , maybe too much.
Putting this idea to work and getting it dialed in will be trial and error. We want good growth rates and of course kok development but not overfeed and pollute the the water.
For now Im going to fast full grown and developed adults 2 times per week, juvies and adults who arent finished growing once per week and see how that works out.
I think Im going to do the one day fasts on the same days I do water change, thereby giving the fish the best opportunity to clean themselves out- no food and clean fresh water.
RR
RR
You may actually want to perform the water change the evening before the day that you do fast your fish. This way the cycle does not hinder the digestive system. Do keep us posted.
Marc
wow this thread is a medicine! 
thanks to those who brought this thread
thanks to those who brought this thread
Eh RedRooster this is amazing info man makes me love my fish even more
learn something new everyday
Good info! however, does anyone see the correlation between fasting and improve water quality? By fasting the fish one or two days per week, you actual improve the water quality thus causing the fish more healthy? Most of us have adequate water filtration system, but not to the point that have super water quality so less food input into the tank, the filtration system can have enough time to broke down all the waste and un eaten food. Discuss hobbyists feed their fish daily with daily water change, and their fish still very healthy and growth very big. There is no doubt that feed the fish just enough will improve the fish health and live longer, but it's all boil down to water quality! Chinese medicine theory works, but not works on everything! just my 2 cents.
I didn't do any controlled experiments but I routinely fast my fish for several days. Some times I do it once a month sometimes once every other month. Sometimes I fast for a day or two after a water change, which will also allow some of the bacteria to re-establish themselves. I did a large water change on all my tanks before I went to Las Vegas and left for vacation for 5 days and when I came back, my fish were about as bright and healthy as I have ever seen them before. Yes, this can just be because I did a large water change and didn't feed them so the water was exceptionally good. Just my 2 cents
QUOTE (LacViet @ Dec 27 2006, 07:51 PM)
Good info! however, does anyone see the correlation between fasting and improve water quality? By fasting the fish one or two days per week, you actual improve the water quality thus causing the fish more healthy? Most of us have adequate water filtration system, but not to the point that have super water quality so less food input into the tank, the filtration system can have enough time to broke down all the waste and un eaten food. Discuss hobbyists feed their fish daily with daily water change, and their fish still very healthy and growth very big. There is no doubt that feed the fish just enough will improve the fish health and live longer, but it's all boil down to water quality! Chinese medicine theory works, but not works on everything! just my 2 cents.
As you know this is based on Chinese medicine theory thousands of years old. The food ,digestion, and fasting aspect is just part of the equation within Chinese theory breathing too is a large part. In our hobby water quality is a great deal like the breathing aspect of Tao. Water quality is VERY important.
I think your observation about less food is correct Less food = less waste and betterwater quality which makes less for the fish' immune system to deal with which= healthier fish.
RR
awesome... i never heard the term fasting... but i think i know what u mean... a bit confusing though
well I agre w/ alot of what rr says but it basically boils down to fish look there best and defend against disease when the conditions are OPTIMAL 
whether its due to bigger filters, more h2o changes, or less or no food its all about h2o quallity...
and as for the guy w/ the cute lil bunny wabbit in his avatar he seems a little over scientific althogh i gotta agree with what he said about the mice having nothing to do with fish and the fish being cold blooded therfore matabolizm is based on h20 temp.
just my 2cents worth, great stuff guys
whether its due to bigger filters, more h2o changes, or less or no food its all about h2o quallity...and as for the guy w/ the cute lil bunny wabbit in his avatar he seems a little over scientific althogh i gotta agree with what he said about the mice having nothing to do with fish and the fish being cold blooded therfore matabolizm is based on h20 temp.
just my 2cents worth, great stuff guys
great Info, I appreciate it.
Great information man
didn't get to reading this thread, but this information is killer. i might need to try it. never tried it yet. i guess i'll have to experiment for myself. thanks for the information. thumbs up 
QUOTE (Redrooster @ Oct 6 2006, 06:45 AM)
This thread was begun because of a discussion going on concerning kok growth in waterheads, but the discussion of fasting was brought up and deserves its own thread.
Fasting your fish is perhaps the greatest key to health and vitality you will likley find. There are many benifits to fasting your fish I will attempt to address a few of them.
General health, vitality, and longevity. All the benefits fasting your fish evolve from a single principle. That principle is this, digestion of food is the number one energy expenditure in the life of your fish. The fish must produce digestive enzymes in order to properly digest the food, in the case of pellets or even flakes even more enzymes are needed as they do not contain thier own enzymes as natural food does. In order to generate these digestive enzymes the fish' biological system uses a great deal of general enzmes which carry out all the biological functions in the fish. The general enzymes are the Chi or life force of the fish. Think of the general enzymes as the worker ants of the biological system. There is a finite number of these general enymes available at a given time. When we fast our fish we are taking the main drag on the system away, this allows the general enzymes to concentrate on thier other important tasks, most notably waste removal and cleaning up of the biological system. All degenerative disease eminate from a break down in the waste removal process, it is imperative the waste is removed faster than it builds up. When this does not occur bad things happen on a cellular level and the fish' weakest link will be attacked, disease sets in, hexa is a prime example from over feeding and dirty water. Stress also takes a toll on the process.
Since the biological system is designed to be self cleaning and thus, self healing, we are helping our fish, help themselves as it were.
Vitality is renewed during this process, color improves because the system is cleaned and running the way it is supposed to and can support the hormonal system etc... I have a male jin gang who recently has been acting not well at all. He was clamped finned, lethargic, lost his color and was eating poorly. Note that eating poorly or not at all is instinctive in the animal world, now you know why. I put him in a hospital tank and fasted him for a week solid. At the end of this time his kok came back, his color was superior to what its been in a year, hes extremely aggresive like he used to be. His system cleaned itself. In the other thread westwood noted that he noticed this too, that periodic fasting improved the kok in his fish.
You may have noticed fish fed live food tend have superior color, particularly kept in ponds and such, this is because live food contains digestive enzymes and the fish does not have use general enzymes to create them. there are other factors as well but thats a big one. Additionally we are feeding our fish pellets which contain plant, starch and protien. This is unnatural. Omnivours do eat all these things, but not at the same time. A cichlid may eat minnows and vegetable matter, but you wont find them eating these things at the same time in nature. birds eat berries and such and also insects and worms but not at the same time. The reason is that these foods require different enzymes for proper disgestion, in fact the ezymes tend to cancel each other out due to opposite PH values. the result is that it takes far longer to digest, expending more enzymes and still resulting in improper absorbstion. This creates stress on the system as a whole and a great deal of waste to clean and by now we know thats BAD. Think of Thankgiving dinner or an all you can eat buffet where you stuff yourself with a variety of foods, what does your body want to do? Sleep, the body wants to sleep to concentrate on digestion, if you try to be active after a big meal what can happen? cramps etc... when you have a full stomach the body becomes focused on digestion as its primary task. Unfortunatley much of the live food we have at our disposal also contains parasites and such.
Illness and disease. The best thing you can do for an ill fish is to fast it. Lets look at hexa as many of us have dealt wth it before. I had a 5" ZZ who was in a community tank. He daily battled with a African zebra for territory. At some point the I thought the zebra had beaten him to a pulp as he was hiding quite a bit which wasnt his personality. I caught him and took a look, he had hexa pretty bad and it had eaten away a good deal of his face. I immediately placed him in a hospital tank and began his fast. I slowly put the temp up to 90f, this has a twofold effect. First the heat accelerates the cleaning system and secondly the hexa bacteria or parasite cannot live at this temp. Then I added salt to the water, this allows the toxins to flow through the skin into the tank water easier, this also means frequent water changes. This fish was pretty messed up and he fasted/refused to eat for six or seven weeks ( so dont worry about going away for the weekend! ) when his appetite returned he got frozen blood worms which are easy to digest. Over the course of two months I fed him, power fed him, with one day fasts per week . I had him in a twenty gallon tank so i knew if he was going to grow it wouldnt be longer it would be fatter, in this manner his face filled back in albiet scarred. Hes alive and well.
How effecient is this twice a week fasting regiment? A study was done on mice. two groups of brothers and sisters were used. One group was fed daily the other fasted twice a week. The group that was fasted lived 50% longer than the other group. Wise councel for anyone with a prized fish they want to keep around.
As far as implementation, Im not sure if I would worry too much with juvies, but adult fish will surely benefit.
I hope Ive explained this idea well enough and incidently this fasting works with all animals including humans.
Any questions or adding commentary would be welcomed.
RR
Fasting your fish is perhaps the greatest key to health and vitality you will likley find. There are many benifits to fasting your fish I will attempt to address a few of them.
General health, vitality, and longevity. All the benefits fasting your fish evolve from a single principle. That principle is this, digestion of food is the number one energy expenditure in the life of your fish. The fish must produce digestive enzymes in order to properly digest the food, in the case of pellets or even flakes even more enzymes are needed as they do not contain thier own enzymes as natural food does. In order to generate these digestive enzymes the fish' biological system uses a great deal of general enzmes which carry out all the biological functions in the fish. The general enzymes are the Chi or life force of the fish. Think of the general enzymes as the worker ants of the biological system. There is a finite number of these general enymes available at a given time. When we fast our fish we are taking the main drag on the system away, this allows the general enzymes to concentrate on thier other important tasks, most notably waste removal and cleaning up of the biological system. All degenerative disease eminate from a break down in the waste removal process, it is imperative the waste is removed faster than it builds up. When this does not occur bad things happen on a cellular level and the fish' weakest link will be attacked, disease sets in, hexa is a prime example from over feeding and dirty water. Stress also takes a toll on the process.
Since the biological system is designed to be self cleaning and thus, self healing, we are helping our fish, help themselves as it were.
Vitality is renewed during this process, color improves because the system is cleaned and running the way it is supposed to and can support the hormonal system etc... I have a male jin gang who recently has been acting not well at all. He was clamped finned, lethargic, lost his color and was eating poorly. Note that eating poorly or not at all is instinctive in the animal world, now you know why. I put him in a hospital tank and fasted him for a week solid. At the end of this time his kok came back, his color was superior to what its been in a year, hes extremely aggresive like he used to be. His system cleaned itself. In the other thread westwood noted that he noticed this too, that periodic fasting improved the kok in his fish.
You may have noticed fish fed live food tend have superior color, particularly kept in ponds and such, this is because live food contains digestive enzymes and the fish does not have use general enzymes to create them. there are other factors as well but thats a big one. Additionally we are feeding our fish pellets which contain plant, starch and protien. This is unnatural. Omnivours do eat all these things, but not at the same time. A cichlid may eat minnows and vegetable matter, but you wont find them eating these things at the same time in nature. birds eat berries and such and also insects and worms but not at the same time. The reason is that these foods require different enzymes for proper disgestion, in fact the ezymes tend to cancel each other out due to opposite PH values. the result is that it takes far longer to digest, expending more enzymes and still resulting in improper absorbstion. This creates stress on the system as a whole and a great deal of waste to clean and by now we know thats BAD. Think of Thankgiving dinner or an all you can eat buffet where you stuff yourself with a variety of foods, what does your body want to do? Sleep, the body wants to sleep to concentrate on digestion, if you try to be active after a big meal what can happen? cramps etc... when you have a full stomach the body becomes focused on digestion as its primary task. Unfortunatley much of the live food we have at our disposal also contains parasites and such.
Illness and disease. The best thing you can do for an ill fish is to fast it. Lets look at hexa as many of us have dealt wth it before. I had a 5" ZZ who was in a community tank. He daily battled with a African zebra for territory. At some point the I thought the zebra had beaten him to a pulp as he was hiding quite a bit which wasnt his personality. I caught him and took a look, he had hexa pretty bad and it had eaten away a good deal of his face. I immediately placed him in a hospital tank and began his fast. I slowly put the temp up to 90f, this has a twofold effect. First the heat accelerates the cleaning system and secondly the hexa bacteria or parasite cannot live at this temp. Then I added salt to the water, this allows the toxins to flow through the skin into the tank water easier, this also means frequent water changes. This fish was pretty messed up and he fasted/refused to eat for six or seven weeks ( so dont worry about going away for the weekend! ) when his appetite returned he got frozen blood worms which are easy to digest. Over the course of two months I fed him, power fed him, with one day fasts per week . I had him in a twenty gallon tank so i knew if he was going to grow it wouldnt be longer it would be fatter, in this manner his face filled back in albiet scarred. Hes alive and well.
How effecient is this twice a week fasting regiment? A study was done on mice. two groups of brothers and sisters were used. One group was fed daily the other fasted twice a week. The group that was fasted lived 50% longer than the other group. Wise councel for anyone with a prized fish they want to keep around.
As far as implementation, Im not sure if I would worry too much with juvies, but adult fish will surely benefit.
I hope Ive explained this idea well enough and incidently this fasting works with all animals including humans.
Any questions or adding commentary would be welcomed.
RR
thanks for your post. my fish now is same exactly problems. i will try your way to see how it work
i fast my fish all the time. it helps keep the water CLEAR AS CRYSTAL!!! Fish are happy, i'm happy.
wow! i cant believe this thread is still alive anyway this is a very useful thread 4 beginners
thanks for the brain food,
i try this one.i think this is good
is it bad to keep the temperature around 88-90 constantly? even if the fish isn't sick?
Everyone has been talking about fasting fish. Why don't we do this to ourselves and fast for 10days, won't u think it'll prolong our life. Just kidding. But fasting is a good way to prolong the life of one self. Not even fish, human too. Food contains oxidant and chemicals, eating too much will cause health problems. Do you heard of obesity, that's what happen when there's too much food and not expenditure of energy. But fasting too much will cause malnutrition and also cause health problems. I am a buddhist and there's a saying "Never go extremes, take the path between these two extremes", in this case two extremes like overfeeding and fasting. And buddhist monks don't eat food after 12 pm to 4 am. yeah, they only eat one breakfast at 4 am and lunch at 10-12 am. Most of the monks live a long life free of diseases.
Amen Sir Your The Man Thnx For The tip.....
this is something nice... I'm just new here and I got already a lot of information.
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