I honestly think, getting an Original pure breed huga Luohan Golden Monkey is not that easy. I mean if you really want to get down to the niddy gritty on just what we have here in the USA.

I have two golden monkeys from sonny. I know for sure they are about 80% showing true golden mokey genetics, but there is a 20% gentics that look similar to ZZ. The reason why i say genetics is becuase of the characteristics they exhibit. If you think about the evolution of the species, then how did we go from this fish



To a fish like this...



James- Remember you said that maybe the breeder bred the OG GM's with a texas strain maybe a cai shen like this one...

Click to view attachment

You see that cia shen is a blue texas hybrid, So if a similar tyoe of fish like this was used to make the generation after the pearl less GM then the Golden Monkey strain just introduced another set of hybrid gentics by adding some cai shen. DO you think this is possible? I think so let me show you another OG golden Monkey...

Click to view attachment

or how about this one...

Click to view attachment

You see the change? Yes according to the look of the fish it has both the Original Golden Monkey gentics with out the pearls, and the new introduced pearl look, which the breeder didnt get by breeding with another Golden Monkey, but with another pearl fish like a ZZ or a texas strain.

look at this OG Hua Luohan, i think it might be another early pearly Gm strain !

Click to view attachment

So you see by the Time the Modern Golden Monkeys like these champs here came about, they were no longer pure Gm in the sense of the original fish used that didnt have pearls on them, they became mixed more to evolve and be able to compete with the newer strains. So thats why the member ALAN in the old thread of sonny's that i brought up said it would be super hard 3 years ago to get an OG golden monkey.


Click to view attachment

it just a texas zz mix guys 'lol' but really that first golden monkey?? it looks to have strong zz traits,,,, but you take that fish and cross it to a gooooood texas and not the regular old pet shop texas,and then you can see some gm,anyway I really enjoyed that last bit mm317, but guys as long as we know what strains hold what traits this name strain game stuff is geting old,you can ask just about any senior member here to id a fish and they can tell you exactlly what traits they see in the fish from differant strains,that to me is good enuff cause none of us really know EXACTLLY what is in there we just know what familar to us from the gm,zz, kamfa that we know today, anyway I just love these long drawn out threads there sooooo entertaining

omg u are funny dud,its not even in the zz strain how can it be a gm?its got white eye!!!!!!!!11hahaha

u talk like u know alot man,how come?

wow a lot of fighting over this. I asked a friend of mine that has been importing and breeding flowerhorn for almost 10 years what’s the difference between GM’s and ZZ’s. he said they’re just names given by breeders of different areas that went for traits that were popular to there markets. After bugging him for a little while he gave me a whole complex story of how this is true hopefully I broke it down enough with out loosing key details in the process.

When flowerhorn originated there were really only 2 breeds of these fish for distribution, flowerhorn and jk’s. Flowerhorn came in 2 varieties those with pearls and those with out. Jk’s also had two varieties, those that faded and those that didn’t. With the flowerhorns, the ones w/o pearls were quickly over taken by those with pearls, so then it became pearl scale flowerhorn. With the jk’s the unfaded ones developed nice golden skin over the flowerhorn’s grey skin.
So at 1999 there were 4 strains of flowerhorn hitting the American market, regular flowerhorn, pearl scale flowerhorn, golden flowerhorn, and jk’s. there were so many breeders that these 4 strains had so many different names and minor variations, that names became a joke. No importer wanted to hear a name but rather look at the fish. Knowing this the breeders and exporters started line breeding going for better quality traits and so fourth. The pearl scale flowerhorn beat out regular flowerhorn and became ZZ’s, the golden flowerhorn (not the faders) became GM’s, and the faders took the name Golden Flowerhorn and JK’s.
About now it’s 2000-2001 and kamfa hit the scene. These were hybrids of any type of flowerhorn crossed with any vieja or parrot. These guys brought on some new traits people became interested with. Short mouths, tail wrap, sucked in eyes, and of course bigger kok’s. seeing this those guys who had the GM’s began to line breed there fish to have similar traits. Those who had the ZZ’s wanted to completely dominate the market and began line breeding there fish to develop faster and become more colorful. This meant that they could have a fish that could compete with the kamfa strains.
Now its 2007 and we have JK’s, GM’s, ZZ’s and Kamfa. What is classified as a kamfa now still remains controversial. JK’s haven’t been improved too much except for being more red and pearls but are classified as any flowerhorn that fade. The differences of GM’s over ZZ’s shouldn’t be to hard or so controversial. To start with ZZ’s obviously develop faster and have beautiful coloration. While these are good traits and the main focus of the breeders, they also have draw backs. ZZ’s have narrower and thinner bodies, longer and droopier fins and an average life span of about 5 to 7 years. GM’s on the other hand do take longer to develop but develop much better. They have thicker and broader bodies, tail wrap fins, short mouth, sucked in eyes, and even color. The down side is that they take longer to develop (NOT SEXUALLY MATURE) but on the upside they are a much hardier fish and live longer making for an overall better breeder.
This is not to say that there is no ZZ in GM or GM in ZZ, crosses were made during the line breeding making it hard to determine which is which. The stories that ZZ and GM are different hybrids and are different fish all together are wrong. If this were so there would be major fertility issues when the 2 are crossed. There differences are only physical and have only come about through selective breeding not hybridization.

Traits that stand out for GM Vs ZZ:
Here is a list of what to look for if you’re confused over GM Vs. ZZ on a fish. Mind you there have been some crosses so do not just rely on a couple of physical features to make up your mind.

GM
*Slower development
Longer life span
Hardier fish
*Thicker broader bodies
Tail wrap
*Short mouth
Sucked in eyes
Even color


ZZ
*FASTER development
Decent life span
More fragile of a fish
*Narrower thinner bodies
*Longer DROOPIER fins
Beautifully colored

*Traits that most commonly determine the differences between GM’s and ZZ’s

this point of view was the best one I’ve heard so far lemme know what you guys think and lets stop the fighting and be constructive

Wow,

Very nice story, Much interesting to read, I just hope it is true.
I am a newbie so I would know what to say, but definitely each
breeder breds a flowerhorn for there own traits. GM is evolving,
ZZ is evolving, kamfas is evolving and thats how it goes. Although
they do evolve, they have been line bred for many years so I do believe
GM can be pure bred and its not that hard, just need some scientific
testings, selective breeding, and good old hard work.

Thanks for the contributions.

Jam420

I dont know what the purpose of your thread was then, cause your always gonna stick to Gm is pure, when it really isnt, Old school Gm might be closer to pure but not the latest generations, and also there is still no pure fh, think about all the culls from each supposed gm batch?? How mnay are ugly and not consistent, how many did you have to cull from your batch???

NYC , That sounds entirely plausible and I like your explanation! The most logical and chronological post yet

Bro Will,

Thanks for such great info that will help understand this topic.
I would just like to say, job well done. Although we can say there are no pure OG
GM, but what we can say is there should be some pure Modern GMs, Correct?
Modern meaning evolved as where the breeders tried to improve on the characterstics
while maintaining all the basic traits, such as body, face structure, fins and tail.
Therefore, the GM strain is still continueing its development and who gets to name
the GM strain? of course the breeder of this breed.



To tell you the truth Will,
My first batch was a snakeskinzz x with my GM.
None of them was Culled and I was able to sell all of them.
Most of them looked real good.
The only thing was not all had big head but many had very consistant traits.

Jam420

thanx a lot my friend i spent a lot of time trying to get this info

Just a curiosity...are those fries considered as GM?

Those fries are not considered as a GM but a GM cross Bred with zz.
so zz malau?

Thanks,
James

Cheers, great detective work. I actually learned a lot from this thread

Jame, you can still achieve a pure new strain of GM if you want and it shouldn't be hard.
Take your best pair or two pair closely related fish that you think are the best representation of your for a GM and inbreed/line breed the heck out of them. When your final product all look alike like "peas in a pod", act alike, eat alike, and alike, you will have a pure strain of your own.
Remember the McRae Blacks, they were from about 8 different types of blacks but McRae's end result are a pure strain of uniform specimen.

wait...whats the point of purity? i mean, great, there are fine lines between ZZ and GMs but as it seems they are sooo closely related now whatever difference they once had will soon be gone. like it was said before certain breeders went for certain traits their market sought after. GMs have no trait specified to GM anymore, same with ZZ. the only thing dividing these strains now seems to be the name. to me and im sure others ZZs, GMs, and JKs are all flowerhorn at their finest.
now if your looking for a name to make a fish seem more valuable or appealing then by all means name it after me but i guarantee you that it wont do any good. Just because something is called a diamond doesnt make it a diamond.
if your genuinely interested in classification then you should follow up on the source. after some investigation im pretty sure you can trace your fish back to the original farm where it was bred and asked them yourself.
finally if you have a GM or a ZZ with a unique trait that you would like to enhance and continue on to make it a dominate trait that will set it apart from other flowerhorn wouldnt you like to name it yourself? of course the trait would have to be remarkable to create a new breed but it can and has been done after some time. and if people ask you what the linage was to achieve your outcome then just tell them honestly, "it was a special fish." believe me if you ever tried to ask a chinese nyc breeder how they achieved what they achieved they all tell you the same thing, "ahhh special fish."
flowerhorn, parrots, srs, srt, etc all began on trade secrets, if everyone knew what the correct combination to lets say a parrot, wouldnt we have a lot more FERTILE male parrots? better looking parrots, more variety? but believe you me if everyone new these secrets farms like Happy Breed or even Rarefish's farm would be out of business. No business means no value, no value means no market, no market means fewer fish, fewer fish means fewer nutjob collectors like us, fewer nutjob collectors means more crime, more crime mean more civil turmoil, more civil turmoil means civil war, civil war means END OF CIVILIZATION! all this for the proper combination of vieja x midas for parrots.......
who knows maybe what is done in your basement could eventually become the most sought after fish EVER!
i say pick pretty and unique fish and go from there....no more classification!

don't know what it is... but it's a very crazy fish ....

Hi Roundhead,

I have read a lot of Gamecock magazine. I used to buy every month until they banned it is the US and
the book became less thick and less ads. I do remember Mr Mcrae breed and also Raymond
and how it went from this guy to this other guy. But you know that these guys just kept breeding
by selective breeding, inbreeding, line breeding. It gets all more complex. I might try it out but
I found a shortcut in my breeding so now, My GM breed is in testing and I will be posting some updates
of my fries when they are of nice size. I must say I think it should yeild high percentage of good babies.
cause both male and female are top notch. Just wait for my 2007 batch.

Jam420

Anybody owns this Flowerhorn book: The Ever Changing of Lou-Han? It was published in 2002. It’s a very good book with lots of information about Flowerhorns. On this very interesting thread (topic), many members have shared their thoughts, information, theory, etc. about GM vs. ZZ.

Base on the information and pictures in this book….let me share my thoughts. I’m still a newbie and still learning from everyone. My thoughts may not be correct so here it goes. I now understand why sonny, Jam420, and others who believe GM is not ZZ and ZZ is not GM. In this book, it shows the different variation and older versions of GM’s. Looking at the mating section “The mating secrets of Lou-Han” in this book, the breeders used high quality texas, blue texas, and pearly kamfa in the mix to create GM’s. So the rumor that Jam420 stated about using high quality texas for GM earlier could be true.

With the information in this book, I believe that all older versions of GM’s are truly pure GM’s (no ZZ mixed in it, of course back then there was no ZZ ). I also believe that there are still some modern pure GM’s around by crossing with other high quality fish such as texas & kamfa to obtain the finnage, bright and pearly body. I also know for sure that there are some GM’s mixed with ZZ and carry ZZ traits.

Conclusion, everyone that contributed to this topic is correct in one way or the other. There’s no right or wrong. Originally, GM is not ZZ and ZZ is not GM. Now, some GM’s carry ZZ genes & traits and vise versa.

Thank You
Very Nice Post you got there and definitely some good info.
Appreciate you inputs.

Jam420

I agree with you 100%

Is it safe to say then that there is no such thing as a 100% GM or a 100% ZZ and that everything is a mix?
So if we see a nice fish, we just call it a "Nice Fish"?

yes yes

Hi Guys,

I am glad now people can understand the GM or ZZ issue.
Anymore people agree?

GM

GM MIXES

ZZ

ZZ Mixes.

Does not mean GM = ZZ

Jam420

Jame, I understand you fully and not trying to disprove you at all because I have no experience and needs good teaching. I just want to know and have you and others to prove your theory/believe for me to understand. If there is a "Pure" strain of GM, I would like to see them all. If they are pure and stable, then I expect them to be alike in all aspects. If not, then they are not considered Pure. Sorry for asking too much but that is how I've known the definition of Purity.
As for the fowl, there is no such thing as a pure strain unless it is directly from the breeder's mouth. My philosophy is, only god and that breeder will know the truth of his project, the rest is all speculations. I don't know about fish but I do know about chicken. You can take a pure trio from your best friend's yard from Oklahoma and raise it in Washington and your birds will be totally different than the original bird. There is also a big difference with the top and bottom side. Take the Black Gray for example, top side black and bottom side gray will give you black gray stags. While the opposite will yield only black stags.
My recommendation is if you were to develop your own pure stable strain, then you can call it, "Golden Jam Monkey". This will be undisputable because you are the creator and the developer. No one can say that it is a GM or a ZZ because it is not; it is a GJM. They can speculate, hate, or debate about it but if you produce quality fish, they will speak for themselves.

Good luck my friend.

With the way you described a zz visual trait and Kamfa visual trait,
makes no sense and cannot be validated. With the way you explain things,
Kamfa can be in zz category, zz can be in fortune fish category, jk can be in zz category
and so on because you have no solid descriptions. Very confusing and definitely not
usable.

Jam420

i think ur all full of ....ya dont know nuttin...its a mix indo zz GM...ahahaahahha ...i dont see da kamfa in it...famfa has the non-red eye and longer body wit drooping head

When flowerhorn originated there were really only 2 breeds of these fish for distribution, flowerhorn and jk’s. (JK only had been introduce to S'pore mermaid dealer @ Chai Chee end 2001) not sure wats happen during dinosaurs age Flowerhorn came in 2 varieties those with pearls and those with out. Jk’s also had two varieties, those that faded and those that didn’t. Agrees With the flowerhorns, the ones w/o pearls were quickly over taken by those with pearls, so then it became pearl scale flowerhorn. Agrees With the jk’s the unfaded ones developed nice golden skin over the flowerhorn’s grey skin.those unfaded are ZZ loH!!! I did not sees any of the above mention in my history of undade Jingang keeping So at 1999 there were 4 strains of flowerhorn hitting the American market, regular flowerhorn, pearl scale flowerhorn, golden flowerhorn, and jk’s. Only heard of Flowerhorn getting popular in USA recent last 4yrs... didn't know it started even before S'pore there were so many breeders that these 4 strains had so many different names and minor variations, that names became a joke. Agrees! I also sianZzz No importer wanted to hear a name but rather look at the fish. Knowing this the breeders and exporters started line breeding going for better quality traits and so fourth. Agrees The pearl scale flowerhorn beat out regular flowerhorn and became ZZ’s, the golden flowerhorn (not the faders) became GM’s, and the faders took the name Golden Flowerhorn and JK’s.UnhuH!!! This is the one very the misleading! GM is not of that immediate during my time, it was only introduce into the local market (S'pore) after 1+yrs... About now it’s 2000-2001 and kamfa hit the scene. These were hybrids of any type of flowerhorn crossed with any vieja or parrot. These guys brought on some new traits people became interested with. Short mouths, tail wrap, sucked in eyes, and of course bigger kok’s. seeing this those guys who had the GM’s began to line breed there fish to have similar traits. Quite convincing now!!! But the intial breed is name as Huo Feng Huang here from Felix (Pasir Ris Farm) and BlueWorld Aquarium Those who had the ZZ’s wanted to completely dominate the market and began line breeding there fish to develop faster and become more colorful. This meant that they could have a fish that could compete with the kamfa strains. Which meaning its ZZ loH!!! Initially, Trimaculatus have this early development thingy at early stage liao maH!!!
Now its 2007 and we have JK’s, GM’s, ZZ’s and Kamfa.Agrees What is classified as a kamfa now still remains controversial. Short mouths, tail wrap, sucked in eyes, and of course bigger kok’s!! Any opinionJK’s haven’t been improved too much except for being more red and pearls but are classified as any flowerhorn that fade. The Red/Orange/Yellow Pigmentation line I will call themThe differences of GM’s over ZZ’s shouldn’t be to hard or so controversial. AgreesTo start with ZZ’s obviously develop faster and have beautiful coloration. While these are good traits and the main focus of the breeders, they also have draw backs. ZZ’s have narrower and thinner bodies, longer and droopier fins and an average life span of about 5 to 7 years. AgreesGM’s on the other hand do take longer to develop but develop much better. They have thicker and broader bodies, tail wrap fins, short mouth, sucked in eyes, and even color. Agrees partially, good GM stands too the trademarks of early development of metallic sheers like to day known Malau but inherited the big strain FH trademarks of rectangular body big fan tails which dun highly droop and longer life spanThe down side is that they take longer to develop (NOT SEXUALLY MATURE) but on the upside they are a much hardier fish and live longer making for an overall better breeder. Agrees! Provided the fish have KF trademarks of big broad rectangular body and not ZZ triangular type of body
This is not to say that there is no ZZ in GM or GM in ZZ, crosses were made during the line breeding making it hard to determine which is which. Agrees!!! Tats why dealer are using this excuse to short change buyers The stories that ZZ and GM are different hybrids and are different fish all together are wrong. Agrees 100% If this were so there would be major fertility issues when the 2 are crossed. Agrees!!! The gene wld becomes weaker resulting to possible chip eyes symdrom There differences are only physical and have only come about through selective breeding not hybridization.Agrees!!! To cull and main few F1-F4

Traits that stand out for GM Vs ZZ:
Here is a list of what to look for if you’re confused over GM Vs. ZZ on a fish. Mind you there have been some crosses so do not just rely on a couple of physical features to make up your mind.

GM
*Slower development
Longer life span
Hardier fish
*Thicker broader rectangular bodybodies
Tail wrap
*Short mouth
Sucked in eyes
Even colornot necessary
metallic sheer and line works


ZZ
*FASTER development
Decent life spanAverage life span 5-6yrs
More fragile of a fish
*Narrower thinner bodies triangular body
*Longer DROOPIER fins
Beautifully colored
Winkle after 2yrs


*Traits that most commonly determine the differences between GM’s and ZZ’s

*NOTE* Above mark in red italic is my humble 2cts opinion in personal view, it does not represent any constitution or organisation opinion...







modified by arofantics member

keep it comming ))))` ))))` ))))`

Its all Good Bro,

I believe every word you say and that is the truth. At least we do have some kind of agreement that
there are differences in zz and gm but mass majority of the strain are mixed together. What we
do actually see is the dominant traits of each fish and whatever does show on the dominant traits is
what its should be classified. Great Point.

Thanks for the contribution.

Jam420

Here is an update:

From talking to the GM breeder, I asked him if he could show me the breeders
of the GM breed. Answer: no, it is trade secret and cannot be shown.
Next Question: Have you successfully created a pure breed GM that breeds pure,
meaning, genetics stable and fries of GM are stable in characteristics. Answer:
Yes, we do have pure bred GM. It is very expensive.
I asked: Many people dont believe that there are Pure breed GM. Answer: Tell
them what they want to hear, there is no pure bred GM.
I asked again, is there really Pure bred GM? Answer: Yes.

This is all I can report and I can only trust his words. If not then I cant say much.
Believe it or not.

Jam420

Can you ask him if we can see a pure bred GM? That way we can see what traits are directly attributed to the GM

What monetary gain did he achieve by telling jam this? Unless jam paid him to answer questions ))))`

he's a "GM" breeder.. of course he will say that.. lol he needs to sell his"GM"

The discussion wasn't pertaining to a sale... in fact he pretty much states if you don't believe there is a pure GM go right ahead...

I say 3rd fish is Gm! A fw of them look to share GM genes, but maybe 3rd one is the one!

hey james...
does it really matter if it's a zz or GM?? just know that it's a great fish and take good care of it

I would say the GM is #13 or the last one, but the pic is really dark.

I think everyone is pretty much sick of this argument and just wants to get back to fish keeping. Thus the non existant responses. It was definitely a knockdown-dragout-battleroyal, some people still aren't over it!

Flower Horns are crossed so much that we're gettin too a age where the strain isnt as important as the overall look of the fish.Sure it would be nice too be able to tell sumone exactly wut type of fish yoo have and where it came from and all its history but that wont be possible in a few more years ]= but who cares about all that if yoo have a MASTERPEICE!...ahahah lol

we have modern ZZ, Modern Kamfa and now we have modern GM
very interest topic and helpful.

whatever it is.. there is only 2 kind of flowerhorn.. monkey face and non monkey face

Ill try to get a shot just like the older Gm shot, but My GM looks exactly like this under the right conditions.

The flowers match up perfectly except the flowers on my rarely come out while breeding and they are very very small. Also the two top flowers are also present on my fish.

The colors also are an exact match, the orangy bloody red. What really strikes me is the similar body shape and head formation. I really do think my GM came from this gm line. I will really try to get pics

To a GM owner yes it does matter

Even if you have authentic GM if its D or C grade it will look like a lousy ZZ.

So that goes back to Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder.

good topic

IF you want to see if your GM is a ZZ or not, breed it back to a non flowerhorn like a parrot and see its own genetic make up.

If they breed true, they all should look like daddy or mommy right but nope, all of them will look differently with a 99% chance of none of them will look like their parents at all.

What was used to make your female parrot? Not jk, not gm, not kamfa, not zz so that eliminates some possibility there but load and behold, your f1 has texas looking frys, low grade zz looking fries, kamfa with red eyes, flowerless looking frys so how can you explain this?

Your male is not a pure GM or an original GM but a mixture of everything that looks like a GM when you bought it.

My next breeding project is to take them texas looking frys of f1 and breed it back to another non flowerhorn to break it down even further.

Wow, so much good information... my eyes hurt though.

I hope original strains aren't being evolved so much where they are unclassified, but at the same time I understand the fact of our fish being hybrids by human intervention will always be a mixture of something else and will continuously be evolving.

Although I like the modern breeds it's funny how the classics seem to pop up every now and then. Just like my classic shell toe Adidas!

Nevertheless, great history information about our wonderful hobby!

Time for bed

the classic gm has no pearl line it only has flowerline on its body but soon after more ppl master how to breed they started to cross and make the gm to have pearl and flowerline so this make ppl think that its a zz or a zzmalau

vieja syn x red devil to get parrot so this make it a non flowerhorn fish

Very nice high squarish bodies and the tips of the caudal fin.


Regards

McLeonardo

____
dossier surendettement

That is so true....


Once you started to cross...you gonna get zz.

all i can say is thank God for these beautiful creations.. and all of you guys made a great job in bringing out the best in them! KUDOS!

Thats the right spirit to have.

Knowledge is only powerful for those who understand. Although the thread is old, certain knowledge of determine the lineage of the fish is still required in this game to help you identify your next champion.