Hi Guys, Somethings been bothering me recently
about some person call GM a zz. Are there really GM
or is it just a ZZ breed. Please let me know your views
of GM and ZZ.

Here are some pics of GM. Or maybe some professional
is correct and it is a zz. But from my point of view, it is GM.
Anyways, any input will help.









Negative and Positive Comments welcome,
Thanks

Jam420

i can see why they call it a zz cause the zz malua(malaysian zz) looks kinda similar...pearls red color fins...

look like kamfa /zz malau to me . very nice mix malau.

I dont know.. to me it looks like the zz malau

that second piece is beautiful and looks somewhat like kamfah but definitely majority of its traits are zz malau

I believe most people are saying it is zz malau because it has flowerline.
If that is the main reason then lets go to this question.
Why? Is it just because flowerline means it is a zz mix?
Here is a picture of an original Golden Monkey,
It has flowerline and no pearls, Is it a GM or ZZ?

Since no one is willing to give the definite descriptive characteristics of GM vs. ZZ I base my own judgements on pearling. I would say the first two have pearling consistant with GM and the last fish looks more Kamfamalua to me...

It's very hard to give a good answer because GM has changed so much. I look the original GM and I see that it has a ZZ tail but I can see why you would call it a GM because of the color, body and face. If you ask me make some needs to redefine what GM is now. Should have monkey face, some gold coloring, worm pearls, no pearls. Like a blue dragon is what it is because it is blue and ZZ same with RD, PD. Just my 2 cents.

I'm no expert but I assume 1,3, and 4 are Kamfamalau and 2 is ZZ malau. Why, because I have been looking at those fish from the makers I still can't tell the difference between a ZZ and a GM, I can only tell by comparing pics of known GM and ZZs. As stated by many OG asian FH enthusiast, There are different types of GM depending on what generation you are talking about and the female used to breed the GM offspring. I believe many breeders will use a GM male to breed their version of a GM and sell their offspring as a GM. The direct chinese translation of Kamalau is a gold monkey so I guess a real GM Might have the features of being golden or having some golden color and/or a monkey face or structure. The name does not imply any type of pearling. I have noticed that many GMs such as the shipment sonny has sent over have very nice high squarish bodies and the tips of the caudal fin are Usually short and not very trailing. The pics of the Kamfamalaus have fins (dorsal) that appear longer than fins from the generation of GM that sonny sent over. I feel only the original breeder, the people who actually created and named the GM strain can say what can be considered a GM. Some fish may have real GM blood in it but if it wasn't created by the breeders, I don't think it should be called a GM unless authorized by the original breeder. If the original breeder bred one of his GMs to a petstore FH and wanted to call the offspring a GM or ZZ, that is what people should call it. Just my 2 cents

You guy's have a lot to learn here is another gm. What do you see that this is a gm? Please dont say that this is a zz

I don't know anything about GM but I would like to ask a few questions and learn from the expert's answers.
1. What are the characteristics strictly belonging to the GM family but no one else?
2. Do ALL GMs have the unique characteristics from answer for #1?
3. Can pure GMs produce ofsprings with ZZ traits?
4. Can pure ZZ produce or have throw-backs with characteristics of GM as described in anwer for #1?
5. Say if you have a GM cross with something else, do you call the ofspring GM?
6. If question #5 is true, then what percentages of GM blood may consist to qualify the particular fish a GM?

Thanks

Well instead of asking a question, we should just add answers. I am pretty sure we can figure things out.

As we all know, the breed of flowerhorns are always evolving, zz are no longer zz and GM are no longer
GM. I believe evolving only improves the line of breed. But I have noticed that many Breeds are evolving
to similar traits of each types of breed. One example is ZZ. ZZ use to be a simple looking breed like blue
dragon, and red dragon, now it has involved to full pearls and more color. So by comparing older breeds
it would be much easier to see the differences.

So what you say concurs with Rarefish.
That is why I ask those questions because I always assume that a GM is a pure strain of a particular body shape, mouth shape, color patterns, as well as behavior. So those questions I have were mainly to achieve a strict and clear definition in such a way that sonny had tried to imprinted his definition of a GM but never could make it obvious. Based on sonny's mission, I perceived his declarations of the GM as a pure strain much like the strains of game chicken in a way to distinguish the Thai asil apart from the Hatch birds which is obviosly night and day.
So I can safely assume your explanaiton would be like the comparison of the hatch, kelso, claret, and roundheads. No one can be 100% certain that a particular specimen belongs strictly to one of those breds. A hatch/kelso cross will yield either and/or both traits depending on the breeder and the side of the sex.
I finally understand now, what a relieve.

Thanks you for your inputs; this is by far the most logical and scientific explaination to date.

Bro Rarefish,

If you didnt know, the only one of the GM is from sonny is same as his group buy
,but my first GM is not from sonny. It came direct from Malaysia Farm. As you should
have noticed, sonny doesnt really teach. Most of what I learn is from Reading around
the forum. sonny and I are not as Close of a friend as many of you may think. If anything,
my experience is learned though my own views and experiences and Mostly from this great
Website, FHUSA. Please do leave sonny out of this thread. I post this thread is because I do
believe there is a GM strain. If they dont have GM strain, then please explain why INDO have
GM Category, Singapore also Have GM category and also Philippines have GM category, but not
much people enter GM so they do not open such category.

Jam420

So, lets get back to topic here,

From my views and understanding, Malaysia has been steadily breeding zz with zz.
GM to GM and here is how I can illustrate it. It is only possible because they continue
to sell zz that looks like original zz and GM with characteristics of GM.

Malaysian ZZ
Click to view attachment

Malaysian GM



Notice any differences?

Now, many zz breeders do have GM breeds and therefore many GM lookalikes are in fact GM strains
but it is mixed, Exactly how Roundhead explain with gamebirds. Like Hatchxblack, Hatchxkelso,
Hatchxroundhead, and Hatchxgrey. Hatch is by far the best body station bird and gamest so many
breeders use it to make there mixes.

Jam420

James, I am confused again.
So now you are saying that GMs are a pure strain like the BD.
We all know that BD will produce offsprings with strong resemblences of the parent and we also can see that the bulk of BD basically look the same regardless of KOK size and intensity.
If GM are pure then wouldn't they be like the BD in essence of uniformity?

From my experience,
GM are quite stable. Malaysians have been able to breed out consistency
of Characteristics and from sonny's group buys, arent most of his GM similar?
So, malaysia breeds are in a way pure. Such as hatch, is hatch a pure strain?
or is it just breed so much that it breeds consistant and considered pure.

If studying Biology, what is Evolving?
Everything in this world is evolving and that is basically what flowerhorn breeders
are doing, Evolving there strain to a better quality and consistency.

So, to say that a certain breed cannot breed true is just not right.
It can and it may take many years to do it and Malaysia sure does have
the years and they are one that have done so.

Also Indo zz, do breed consistent, so that should validate this.

bro i have seen 3 events here in the philippines and we do not have a GM category when there is a show.

we do however consider GM as a ZZ

i agree what bro rarefish has stated

my opinion

since the flowerhorn is a hybrid, even if you have a male and female GM pair, there is a possibility that a percentage of the offsprings will not look like their parents.

there is also a possibility that a percentage of the offsprings will look like their forefathers or their origins.

also, its just a name to me.

ill breed two zz's one is really red and one is really pearly and from there ill call it a GM. walla!

i dont care about the strain as long it is beautiful like the ones you have posted.

i also believe there is no PURE strain on Flowerhorns. because they are crossed from different fishes.

over all what you have posted looks like a ZZ to me. very very nice ZZ by the way.

(no flames intended)

I think its a bit more complicated than that guys. Since Gm is such an old strain, to me it is safe to say that ZZ came after GM, so Gm genes were used to make ZZ. Just like we have an evolution of all strains, we had kamfa, zz, and later on we got modern kamfa, and modern ZZ. Just like you said, the old ZZ are so easliy distinguishable, but now a days due to crossing gm with some thing to make ZZ, then crossing that back to a GM, doesnt make it an original GM any more.

NOw in Arofanatic they explain fh by telling us about the first breeds which are hua jiao, lou han, and hua louhan. lets just start with these first strains in order to figure it out.

Now Hua Jiao means its a flowerhorn with no pearls but has the flower on the forehead, and flowerline on the body, this strain is what gave the ZZ its flower on the side of the head, with drop tail as the breed got older

Lou han are the plain old school fh that look the Hua Jiao but has the kamfa looking tail, no pearls, no head flower, and no flower line. Look at the Golden Apples from ah soon and ah wee, those are lou hans.

then as time progressed we got the Hua louhan, which is a hua Jiao mixed with a lou han, this fish would have the head flower line, but since its mixed the tails can come kamfa or dropped when they are bigger. since this would be considered the next step up.

Now if you look at the original gm pic that would have to be a hua louhan becuase it has no pearls yet, and has the flower line and head flowers, but that gm has the drop tail. Can you say its ZZ ? NO, why? because Gm is older than ZZ.

So ZZ would have to be the next step of hua lohan, but now with pearls. SO guys since ZZ has hua lohan genetics, it can be likely that is has gm genetics. But dont forget its harder when you go by names like rarefish says, because every different fry that developed different within the same batch would have been marketed with a different name, even though they have the same parents.

After many selectove breeding, breeders could improve on their strain, thats why to me, the gm eventually got pearls like the grandchampion james posted. SO how would they go about getting those pearls? why not cross the OG GM with a ZZ, to give it the pearls, then selectively breed the bad tail out of that hua lohan called the golden monkey. So to me you can breed this fish more stably because since it is such an old breed, it already has many years of beign worked on. Do you guys think that the golden monkey breeder would have told us that in order to give his no pearl fish some pearls, that he breed it to a zz? I dont think so, because that would defeat the whole marketing strategy, of ' my breed is different, so that why you should buy it'. Now come on guys if you are a breeder and want to make a new strain wouldnt you want to acquire the latest strains and mix those to create your new fish, but in the long run the new breed is the mix of two older strains. ?? Thats what i would do.

Now as far as the name golden monkey that is just a name. it would be very hard to go by the name since names for flower horn were being thrown out in the market left and right. DOnt forget that there were many monkey strains not just Gm, they was red monkey before thailand copied their names. There was also metallic monkey, millenium monkey, these were all marketing gimmics for the evolving ZZ strain. Alot of those thai zz stains are copy cat names to sell their fish. DOnt forget that kgm after generation 2 became zz malau, no longer authentic gm. This is plain fact, and the bros from the filipines can attest to that when they realized that the generations after the first KGM were actually ZZ.

Im sure i will remember more info and i will post that up later!

From what I have said, in progress in breeding mean, more stable. Yes they are more stable as your
statement has just said, there kok percentage is high because they have been selectively breeding it
and now i may say they do have a pure kok strain zz and there looks are identically similar. Of course
it will show variations but similar is good enough to say it breeds pure. No one chinese is identical, but
we are somewhat similar, slant eyes, white skin, and etc. and of course there are some different types
such as dark skin chinese. but can we say our baby is pure chinese if our mate is from pure chinese?

Come on Jam, you know the deal. ZZ is not a GM strain or vice versa. The true Malaysian GM has noticeable trait variances. Although the ZZ strain has been the easiest to mix with other strains (RM, GM, SRT) it has always been its own thing. I believe that it just boils down to the FH golden rule: Everything is a Hybrid. Breeders have been eyeballing ZZ, Kamfa,GM,RM, Kamalau, and just rolling out names to set trends.
I miss the days of the original 3 (ZZ, KAMFA, and GM) when there were subtle variances and the classifications were more solid. It seems like it is a crap shoot now, with every tom, dick, and harry having his or her "own breed".
I am all for the original 3. and wish I could just keep those masterpieces like Golden Apple, Mermaid Kamfa, True Blue Dragon, and Malaysian Golden Monkey. I am searching for the lost breed, no more "gimmick" trend breeds. I just hope there are still some of those true breeds being had somewhere in this world. anyone find one, let me know.



2 cents, blah blah, you know the deal.\



Tbos

That is why many GM strains are available, but those strong trait of GM may not breed consistant because
is now have become unstable. But from my own experience of breeding GM strain, I have to say that the
GM blood is very strong and by breeding it, the consistency is quite remarkable. But if one is to breed my
F1 breed, they may find themselves breeding out with a lot of variantions and therefore they will take
years to try stablize the characterstics.

Jam420

That is a very nice zz strain Rarefish.
Now I do not think anyone would say that is a GM.
but an awesome zz. Thanks for sharing.






Ronnie, As state by Bro Jett and Norman,
Philippines do not have enough people that would enter there GM into the contest, so
why add the GM category. Furthermore, the GM category does exist even though it is not posted.
If GM is widely available in Philippines, believe me, there will be a GM category, its just so sad
that GM strain is too expensive and not much people are willing to spend for it in the phil.

Hope this helps.

That beast is amazing! I'm sorry what you guys talking about?

Roundhead,

If you didnt know, GM is one of the oldest strain and is a strain from the famous Houlohan.
It has been bred for a long time and would be one of the most ideal type of flowerhorn. Although
some fins arent as nice as you like, believe me that there are GM that have beautiful tails and fins.
but anyways, such an old strain should by now bred pure, and pure meaning stable and consistent.
It is similar to game birds/fowl. I believe it has a similar history just that gamebirds, just that gamebirds
are more older in its creations. Following some good old game bird breeding will work with breeding
flowerhorns, just flowerhorns have some infertility that makes it more complicated in breeding.

i think have read in some thread that the batch of GM's that have arrive in the philippines was really low class and the price was too high.

i also think that even if there are widely spread here, it will still be considered as a ZZ.

here we condiser ZZ and kamfa as the types of FH.


my opinion though
however, if it will be showed in a competition, there will be a seperate classification for GM. It will be for imported types




agree

this is the good way to learn and share information.

no bashing no mr know it all no flames what so ever

Yes that is true event that happened to Bro Garfield and
most of the fries were not good. He was cheated by Hol land 23
with lousy fries because that is what he bought. I believe hol land 23
sent him another strain because the GM farm does not sell GM fries.
It is a real sad case and I too am not happy with this devil.
Mainly, kgm exist in phils and those are gm strain but more of a zz gm variety
so therefore, it fits more into the zz category. There may be some GM
in phils as I have seen Trojans GM, and some other guys with GM.
It is quite interesting because what category would a flowerless GM
belong too and I believe Trojans GM did enter a contest.
If you can find out Ronnie, it would be great.

Here is the link:
http://www.flowerhornusa.com/index.php?sho...c=6316&st=0

Here is Normans KGM in Phils, I dont know what category it won in but is was #2 placing.

WOW
Bro Chen,
That is a MONSTER! You continue to amaze with your pieces!!

Very good posting brother. The best information I have seen posted on the GM strain hybrid.



Jam420,

The biggest difference that most hobbysts or buyers are seeing in the newer GM strains is that of the long zz body structure. I have looked closer in detail of this breed and can seen the differences very clearly. All of sonny's purchases that came to the states indeed were crossbred with a ZZ strain. I cannot for in fact say that his breed were of a purer GM strain. They in fact did have GM but were not close to even the standard and were very susceptible to disease. The older strains had a higher/taller body structure and a droopier caudal tail section. The newer strains like Jam420 stated do in fact have a stronger and straighter caudal tail section but the body lacks the higher structure that resembles the Golden Apples (JPG). This in fact brings the fact that there are no true GMs left and more of a GMZZ or ZZmalau like in Thailand. There are also many variances that can be attested for. And like Will said, the strain is evolving and progressing into newer categories.



Overall a great contribution and thanks to all members for keeping it civilized.

Thank you Jam420 for starting this topic and thanks Wil for that great info With all this info, what are we going to do about it? What does FHUSA and all its members think is the best way forward in the future for the upcomming planned competition/show in the USA? What categories? This forum has been so helpful, FHUSA rocks and looks like we are starting off the new year with acceptance, understanding and empathy towards others thoughts and ideas. FHUSA rules and all the members here are great and so helpful. With everyone contributing there knowledge, we are growing as a whole

I agree with you Simon this is great! Futher more there is going to be a FH show in Texas this summer that will help the usa market a great deal I plan to compete or show one of my fish there.

Most of the original GM's I've seen on books have gold color on the body (whether with flowerline or not)...that's where the name comes from. These are the truly GM's. Now a day...GM's have evolved so much. Most of them look like ZZ and probably got ZZ blood in them.

Bottom line...it's just a name.

Wow those are awsome....most people might say its a ZZ cuz of the flowerLine...but to me i would say its a Gm..no offense..just my opinion

Here is just anothing thing to think about. According to some rumors, the GM breed
was bred with a ZZ, maybe a POTO(pearl of the orient), but if it was bred with a zz
how come the pearls of the GM breeds are more intense and refined than the POTO?
I say it is a rumor and might not be true.

My guess is the GM was bred with a Texas strain. Probably one of the highest grade texas
available. And then bred back to GM to maintain a stability.

As you can notice a Malaysian GM breds are mostly babyfaced, sunken eyes, forward rising kok,
square jaw line, square body, thick strong tail and tail bone, and unique dorsal fins
that doesnt shoot out with long trailers but more of a balanced fin shape.

These are Characteristics that are bred for and the genes in these breed are thick
and does bred out quite consistant like a blue dragon breed. Although by breeding
a GM with a Nice Texas will produce a F1, if you have the parental breeds of the GM
then breeding them for stability is much faster and easier because the selected fries
can be easily bred back to a uncle GM or a 3 cousin GM or a Grand Champ GM.
But if you are breeding a F1 to another F1 females, then expect some multiple conbinations
of bred.

Example:
............F1xF1.......................................GM x F1
GM x ZZ........RT x GM.....................GM...........GM x RT
.........\............/..................................\.........../
..........\......... /................................... \........./
...........\......../......................................\......./
............\..... /........................................\...../
GMZZRT, GMZZ, GMRT, ............100%GM, 3/4GMx1/4RT,
...GMGMZZ, GMGMRT.........7/8GMx1/8RT and more variations.
or 5/8 gm 1/8 zz 2/8 rt
or much more complex
combinations.

So that is why breeding F1s are much more complex to stabilize.

I am in a process of Breeding this combination.
Just my guess.
(GM) x (6/8GMx2/8zz)
I believe that my next batch will be really nice.

Anyways, just something to think about.

Jam420

WOW Mr. JAM...Nice Come BAck....i guess we have some MAster Mind...heheh

Bilbo,

If you are going by descriptive traits, I dont think Gm traits are zz traits.
Here are some pics of gms. Please dont tell me this is zz? so if not zz is it kamfa?
or what? please let me know what you consider these GM to be. What Class?
My thinking is GM class.

WOW THOSE BEAST SURE DO LOOK LIKE GM TO ME...PROBLLY MIX BREED ..THATS WHY THEY HAVE A HUGE HEAD..,....IF U CALL IT A ZZ THEN ITS NOT JUST A ZZ..CUZ I NEVER SEEN A ZZ BY ITSELF WITH A HEAD THAT BIG..ONLY MIX BREED.......WAIT IM THINK IM WRONG SRRY...

YEAH TRUE I DO SEE MONKEY FACE ON THEM HIGH QUALITY ZZ ( GM )...BUT ALSO..DO PEOPLE USE ZZ TO MAKE GM?? IF SOO WHY DO PEOPLE CHANGE THE NAME OF NATURE FROM A ZZ TO A GM??? THEY STILL CONSIDER AS A ZZ SINCE THERE A BLODD LINE IN THEM...AND WHY IS B4.. KAMFA DO NOT HAVE RED EYE AND WHY IS IT NOW KAMFA IS CONSIDER WITH RED EYE...WHATZ MAKE THEM FROM BEING NOT A RED EYE TO A RED EYE AS TO TODAY??AS FOR NOW ALL THE GM THAT HAD BEEN SENT OVER FOR THE GROUPBUY I DO NOT SEE ANY MONKEYFACE...HEY BROTHER BILBO...HOPE U COULD MAKE IT TO TEXAS SHOW...MAYB U WILL WIN FIRST PLACE...HEHE...OO SRRY BOUT ALL THESE QUESTIONS...IM JUST HERE TO LEARN AND STUDY FROM ALL U MASTER......
HEY BROTHER BILBO MAYBE U CAN GIVE ME A SNEAK PEEK ON YOUR SUPER RED DRAGON...LOL....THANKS FOR SHARING YOUR THOUGHT WITH US...ENJOY AND HAVE A GREAT DAY..
CHAN AKA T

Dear Bilbo,

Thanks for the contribution but many of those do not exibit zz traits at all

I have already posted many theories that explains why many zz do have visual traits of GM.
But you know that GM had those traits for a very long time and now zz are slowly EVOLVING
to these trait because breeders are trying improved the faults they see in there zz breeds.
So many zz breeds are bred back to GM or another breed to try improve there zz breeds.

Believe this or not, A very high percent of the GM fries sent over will become real awesome.
An example is Trojans KGM, at first it was small and didnt look so good, but once it was full
grown, it was ready for a Contest.

Monkey face is a characteristic but if you where to see a GM fry and compare it to another breed,
you can see the differences. As I said, does one chinese need to exibit same features? or are
they all different, but when you see a Chinese, you can guess he is Chinese? Until Cloning is
possible for flowerhorns, one type of breed will never be exactly identical but only similar.

Ok ok....So GM strait never exist... FFUSA rules

Bro Rarefish,

Bilbo have not said GM have kamfa kind nor did he say Gm have jinwah kind and have zz kind.
All he said is all the GM i posted are ZZ. I am only find answers and maybe members of FHUSA
can also understand that there are a lot of GM mixes and yet there is also those that are bred
pure. How do we distinguish if the breed is not mix? That is the answer I look for. This is not
same as sonny's thread, but a more complete look into this Awesome strain called GM.

Hope you understand my intentions.
Jam420

Bro Rarefish,

Thank you for your understanding.
Bilbo may be experienced, but many experienced people do not know anything
to say what breed is what. And definitely a zz is not a gm nor is a gm a zz.
But with this EVOLUTION of breeds, mix and matches are made and that is why
zz have GM traits and GM also have zz traits. I hope this is understood.

what came first chicken or the egg?

I can understand where you guys are coming from.
In essence of hybrid without purity, GM is ZZ which means GM is not a pure strain.
A pure strain would be like a lionhead for the goldfish world, a doberman for the dog world, and a siamese for the cat world. In general they all are uniform for each breed/strain and they all look alike in their own group. Where as the GM is concerned, can you compare their uniformity to those examples?
James, if you say that all of those pics you posted are GM, then how come they don't look alike?
If you were to put a list of champion blue dragons up, you can see that nearly all of them have the same characteristics.
You also said that there are pure GMs still in this world, so if possible can you add the pics of those pure GMs so that we can at least see them in their purist form?
I am not trying to debate with you because I have absolutely zero experience but I would like to learn and reach a conclusion.

Genotype vs Phenotype. In Biology, when an organism has an unknown genotype, we do a cross and recross to observe the phenotypic characteristics of the offspring. I am definitely no expert but I would hazard to guess that the purer GMs when crossed with certain fish will have Similar ratios of certain offspring where as when diluted GMs cross with the same certain fish will have very different ratios of offspring, very few if any with GM characteristics. Jams already ahead of the game because he has actual experience with breeding his GM. I would say Jams GM is of pretty solid OG GM bloodline. So I guess were talking about how to find the purest GM bloodline.

I know a little about biology but let me use an example to carry on the discussion on genetics.
A cross would be alike taking a handfull of pennies and put it in a jar along with another handful of dimes. Then you shake the jar up to mix up the coins. The genotype of the cross would be the ratio of pennies and dimes as you remove a handful of the mixed coins and count the number of pennies versus dimes. The phenotype would be the same handful of mixed coins regardless of the ratio of pennies vs. dime. Instead you would just place that handfull of mixed coins on a table and see which type of coins show more on the surface.

Now, if you were to cross this cross, it would be like introducing a handfull of nickles into this jar of pennies and dimes and your genotype and phenotype will obey the same law.

Well not even the pros at Arofanatics can say what his Gm is. Even Kao Lou called the fish a kgm. Just like i told you guys you can call it a hua luohan that a bout it. And in that definition of hua luohan are zz blood. Why go ask at arofanatics and they will tell you zz luohan = a strain of hua luohan! My honest belief is that most gm today are mixed. but some of them exhibit more gm genes that others, but it doesnt mean they are pure. If you guys look, most of the bodies on our fish are not tall and round, which is a character of the OG GM. some of them might get the body. It really too hard to tell. Like i said some of the fish can easily be distinguished but not all.

hey guys im trying to find the fish sonny got into an argument at phals over, every one there thought it was gm but sonny said it was ZZ. Imma go to phals and find it!

whatever they are??? those are some very nice looking fish wish i had them

Thank You Rarefish,

At least you can admit that there is GM strain.
And GM can be mix with differnt breed, GM kamfa, GM zz, GM FF, GM srt.
Unlike some other people that chooses to knock on the GM category.
I do believe that in the future the Breed classes will become more and more
broad and that people will have trademark names but I believe there will
be people who will try to maintain the original breeds. So please dont tell me
that a GM is a zz. If so, from now on I will call any red dragon a GM since GM
came before the breed of zz.

Basically my point is to point out that a GM is no ZZ. You, rarefish, have also said a gm
is a zz and that is what I wish to solve or prove wrong. Sorry for all this but its just not right
to say one thing and then say another.
I do listen and only listen to things that make sense. Not just a one sentence person say
just because I say so. I need some details.

Jam420

[b] Hi Jam420, thank you your for sharing information about GM strains....At least, I've learned from you...
Among type of GMs, my favorite is GM ZZ strain...

Andy Dang

Mr Rarefish,
Please do not forget what you said. You do not need to explain yourself.
GM get pearls can be from many ways, do not only need to breed to zz.
But yet, you can breed with zz. I did not deny the facts. I believe you may
have english problem because you certainly do not understand what is people prove wrong
or what way is correct. I am open to peoples opinion but when it is not correct why
should I need to think in there behalf.

If I am wrong about GM is zz as Bilbo stated, then why is there so many breed claiming to
be GM. And why are competitions continuing to have GM category. Please get real.
No more bull please as we do not want to mislead our members here in FHUSA.

Jam420