Alright what came first ZZ or GM. And Why? And what is the difference from a GM and a ZZ?



Not my fish example of Gm Vs. ZZ. Can you tell the difference by looking at the picture then if you can let me know what came first? ZZ or GM?

GM
This breed



Click to view attachment<<This was said to be the Original GM what happened to their flower markings later on down the line? Where did they get either pearls from? Who carries what trait? Check out the gill plates see any difference? Can you tell the difference from a Trimac and a ZZ?
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Click to view attachment<<Look at the tail bone and Tail fins how are they different?
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ZZ
This breed originated slightly after the Kamfa, derived from the Luohan. It has a rounded tail, large mouth, red protruding eyes, and a prominent head flower. Zhen Zhou means "pearl flowerhorn." This breed's strongest characteristic is pearling. Breeders often cross other types with Zhen Zhus because they breed easily and can create better pearling for the next generation. Weak tails can also carry over.
Click to view attachment<<Look at the tail bone and how the tail is shaped
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this came first !

Just for sharing, I say that flowerhorn existed before 2001, this poser shows mutiple lines, this shows that they had to be bred way before 2001 to get this quality of fish

More pics from Pre 2001

Supposedly it's GM because based on the "investigation" gm has no zz blood.?



female gm.

BTW David this is a pretty fun topic

So now Gm has no ZZ blood. Randy is that one of yours?

Looks like one of his.

is it pains kids randy? isn't pain ZZ? 0_o

paszipo GM

Interesting note the flowerline and tail has a lot of zz in it drop tail on the fins and the bone structure as thick. It does have Gm face really short and flat face. Why not call it KML?

GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM GM

Speedy explain why GM

I also have to agree that fh existed before 2001, maybe not in the states but for sure in Asia.

So according to your diagram David, you believe GM was a strain derived from ZZ?

Hey Randy, I'm interested to learn more about this "investigation" that you speak of.

This investigation was done by bro Kao Luo but i cant seem to find his post and i'm using his source along with the flowerhorn book as sources. My own source has no validity and i simply researched alittle and came with my own conclusion.

Dont quote me on it lol

but then again.. it may just be good selective breeding that derived from zz genes? lol

That's the thing about it though as I'm 100% sure that you've noticed as a breeder that by combining 2 very true quality parents you still get those odd balls in there that don't represent neither parent well.

easy. zz = pearls

original FH had no pearls. original GM had no pearls.

early ZZ had no pearls either, my opinion also based on the flowerhorn book #1

But back to the original question:

1. What came first, GM or ZZ: I really don't know because I haven't researched that far back and I'm unsure if there were to be information that dates that far back I would be hesitant whether it would be credible or not.

2. What is the difference between the 2: What I have noticed is that the GM snout and lower jaw definitely curve upward (like a monkey) unlike the ZZ snout wich protrudes a bit more outward and forward like most common fish. GM pearls are more scattered throughout it's body and most are non connecting and a bit thin compared to other ZZ that may have thick worm pearls that connect almost everywhere. GM fins are also straighter and carry a strong line. On GM the flowerlines are almost non existent especially when compared to most ZZ.

Now this is only my take on it, so bare with me

Before GM and ZZ we had the Louhan, The louhan really had many forms due to instability. Now during this instable stage they found a Male that was of supreme quality.

Now this male "could have" been the grandfather that created a line from his own shape & qualities. Now He is not a GM or ZZ yet as the name has not been applied.

Now consider that this line now is quite stable after a few generations, showing the similar qualities that we know of GM and ZZ. Now depending on the female used with this line, you will create a difference in physical body style.

Now if multiple females were used and say 1 female's batch were of top notch quality and dubbed the name GM, the other females batch were not of the same high caliber but showed similar characteristics due to the same Father/Grand father and these were rebred to try to put in the nicer qualities but didnt happen and were sold off.

So the original fish that were kept, are the best of the best and continued the breed and coined the name GM, meanwhile the inferior batch that was sold off, were rebred with other fish and thus created the ZZ.

If you see my point, The GM & ZZ "COULD" have came from the same father/grandfather but before the names were introduced. but since made in different area but with same genes, i can see the resemblance. So when they say GM has no ZZ blood or ZZ has no GM blood, technically its true, but they share the blood from the precursor Grandfather that was never "named GM or ZZ''

Just remember, this is just my educated guess and I have been researching this idea for a while now

Also david in your diagram, There is no Kamalau, are we to just generalize GM & KML together as 1 fish?

Don, what do think about Trimac?

Cichlasoma trimaculatum (Amphilophus trimaculatus)

Well trimac was used in the making of the blue dragon which is obvious, but as far as the newer stronger strains i dont think they have much trimac genes left in them

I also doubt that there's much trimac left in newer strains but at the same time I find it very difficult not to rule out this original Central American Cichlid for being a major part in the creation process.

BD=ZZ

ZZ then GM?

Blue dragons ZZ yea but still not b4 the GM

kamalau = cantonese meaning for Golden Monkey

GM = Golden monkey same terms

these two are the same thing. just to clear things up.

Yes KML & GM mean the same BUT they are not the same fish.

Kamalau to me really either means ZZ or ZZmalau in the Thai Dialect of the chinese words.

GM is just the english ... that's the thing Don, I realize that alot of sellers that tried to use Kamalau from KAmfamalau.com in the past put it on ZZ's / ZZmalau so much that eventually the word GM and Kamalau has separated meaning in the flowerhorn world even though it's the same word in both languages.

Ahh, good info.. I believe this to be very true. Because they used KML with so many ZZML i really do not consider KML & GM the same fish. Good to have your knowledge here brotha

early ZZ werent called ZZ.

ZZ direct translation means PEARLS
so i dont see how early Zen Zhuo could have been named Zen Zhou if they had no Zen Zhou on them =)

I do remember seeing the ZZ translation as Meaning Pearls, but then the ZZ fish had no pearls that we see today, yea they had a few spots here n there but nothing wed consider "pearls" of todays quality

you sir are correct . alot of fish were mistaken if they had actual pearling on them or not.
back then they had just white markings at the end of the scales. which alot of thought it was pearls, which in fact werent, buy were sold as pearls

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I know it might be a little hard to read but if you click on it it should blow up to a bigger size. According to the book the one on the right is the new "pearl" type. Other than pearls (or lack of them) new traits at that time were the flower marking on its forehead along with mouth and body shape.

Ok so, look at this example u show, the NEW Pearl fish is the new ZZ compared to the OLD flowerhorn which is on the left.... Does he look like a low quality GM?

So this kind of proves there was a flowerless breed b4 ZZ haha thanx Anthony! Also he has Red eyes so it cant be a Kamfa!!! look for yourself

Well of course, flowerlines weren't all that well developed yet. Again looking at the trimac and older fh:


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I mean if you want to call it a GM then that's cool but I wouldn't, to me it's more kamfa mix than anything. (which is starting to make me believe something else now)

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i dont consider the one on the right to be pearled... or "new pearl " type..
its just names they labled on the fish to sell.

If you don't consider the flowerhorn on the right a ZZ, then what is he to you?

flowerhorn.

Great answer

Just wanted to take a minute to say that I got absolutely nothing done today at the office because of this topic.

Also wanted to thank everyone for sharing their info as I am also sharing what little I know, not trying to debate nor upset anyone merely sharing knowledge.

How do you guys think GM was created? The reason I ask is because I'm starting to create my own theory but the thing that sucks about it is that I have no actual facts, merely speculation and it's something a bit different that may be written off quickly.

lol.. i been at this for 36 hrs.

not all FH going to look the same.
evolution, gene pool. gene shuffling, the fish is going to pick up whatever traits it has in its genes.
this is what u get when u play with hybrids.

for example. this fish above.
i got him and few siblings at less than an inch.
around 1 inch all 5 i noticed were developing their markings and bout 1.5 inch
they were covered in shinypearls . yes even the top of the head.

from 4 inch to 5 inch it had transformed to the fish u see above....
no pearls left anywhere.


the rest of them are still like this but at 6-7 inches and more pearls
(im using this fish for color )


would some one care to elaborate?

I would say deformities or just genes that didn't exactly continue through some of the offspring. You're right about that, all hybrids and all constantly changing alone with personal perspectives of individuals within the hobby.

In 1993 -Malaysians admired fishes with protruding head, known as Karoi, in the western part of Malaysia, also known as warship. In Taiwan, this fish has a slight protruding forehead and long tail, and is widely accepted in the Chinese society which brings luck in geomancy.

In 1994 - The import of Red Devil also known as human face and Blood Parrot from Taiwan to Malaysia mark the birth of flowerhorn.

In 1995 - With the introduction of 1994 birth of flowerhorn this has lead to the blood parrot being crossbreed with the Human Face Red God of Fortune which produced a new species called five-colors god of fortune. With its beautiful colors, it has brought an overwhelming response.

In 1998 - It has further improved with the import of seven-colors blue fiery mouth, from South America, known as Greenish Gold Tiger and Jin Gang Blood Parrot from Taiwan. This crossbreeding was a success, leading to the first generation of flowerhorns named Hua Luo Han which is then followed by subsequent flowerhorn developments.

In 1998 It has further improved with the import of seven-colours blue fiery mouth, from South America, known as Greenish Gold Tiger and Jin Gang Parrot from Taiwan. This crossbreeding was a success, leading to the first generation of flowerhorns, named Hua Luo Han which is then followed by subsequent flowerhorn developments. The flowerhorn arena still continues till today.

Arrival In the US.

When flowerhorn first arrived there were really only 2 breeds of these fish for distribution, flowerhorn and jks. Flowerhorn came in 2 varieties those with pearls and those with out. Jks also had two varieties, those that faded and those that didn't. With the flowerhorns, the ones w/o pearls were quickly over taken by those with pearls, so then it became pearl scale flowerhorn (zhen zhou). With the jks the unfaded ones developed nice golden skin over the flowerhorns grey skin.

So at 1999 there were 4 strains of flowerhorn hitting the American market, regular flowerhorn, pearl scale flowerhorn, golden flowerhorn, and jks. there were so many breeders that these 4 strains had so many different names and minor variations, that names became a joke. No importer wanted to hear a name but rather look at the fish. Knowing this the breeders and exporters started line breeding going for better quality traits and so fourth. The pearl scale flowerhorn beat out regular flowerhorn and became ZZs

About now its 2000-2001 and kamfa hit the scene. These were hybrids of any type of flowerhorn crossed with any vieja or parrot. These guys brought on some new traits people became interested with. Short mouths, tail wrap, sucked in eyes, and of course bigger koks. seeing this those guys who had the GMs began to line breed there fish to have similar traits. Those who had the ZZs wanted to completely dominate the market and began line breeding there fish to develop faster and become more colorful. This meant that they could have a fish that could compete with the kamfa strains.

Louhan - Original flowerhorn created from crossing 4 pure cichlids
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General flowerhorn classification, containing several subsets of strains from different countries and breeders. The parent breed is called Luohan, from the Chinese word for the Buddhist concept of arhat. The four main breeds of flowerhorn are Zhen Zhu, Golden Monkey, Kamfa, and Goldenbase Faders

I knew that sounded familiar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flowerhorn


With a slight difference:




Davids:
About now its 2000-2001 and kamfa hit the scene. These were hybrids of any type of flowerhorn crossed with any vieja or parrot. These guys brought on some new traits people became interested with. Short mouths, tail wrap, sucked in eyes, and of course bigger koks. seeing this those guys who had the GMs began to line breed there fish to have similar traits. Those who had the ZZs wanted to completely dominate the market and began line breeding there fish to develop faster and become more colorful. This meant that they could have a fish that could compete with the kamfa strains.


Wikipedia:
Around 2000–2001, the Kamfa variety appeared. These were hybrids of any type of flowerhorn crossed with any species of the genus Vieja or with any parrot cichlid.[1] These brought in some new traits, such as short mouths, wrapped tails, sunken eyes, and increasingly larger head bumps. Seeing this, those who bred the Zhen Zhus began line breeding their fish to develop faster and become more colorful, in order to compete with the Kamfa strains.

Looks like a classic case of difference in opinion.

Very interesting reading as always,though I believe I've read this a time or two before

THE GM came first

i base my answer on what i SEEN with my own eyes. during late 1998
friend of mine introduced me to FH's, during that time he was breeding a GM and something diamond (could have been a king diamond) but i donno.

I'm starting to think that kamfa came first now. It's really hard for me to explain and am basing this on what I have seen.

Would anyone else out there be willing to consider that a small strain of kamfa was used to create GM? Would this be feasible to anyone else?

Just a thought.